I dont think my arguments are based on idealism and there are barriers to success due to insuffiencies of oppurtunitites.
If that were true then we wouldn't have greats like Mahatama Gandhi, Dr. B.R.Ambedkar, Nelson Mandela and Mother Teresa.
There are great people in each and every field, who have fought and struggled their way to gain what they desired in life.

And yes, whereas I do consider theories to be an important part of academic curriculum, i would rather base my arguments and judgements on the practical experiences and knowlegde which a person gains by virtue of co-existence with fellow humans.

I firmly believe that oppurtunities exist for those who seek them, how a person uses those oppurtunities to his benefit are a matter of persnal wisdom and choice, whether in a poor country or a rich one.

Poor countries have gotten richer by the sheer grit, determination and desire to achieve of even a handful of dynamic entrepreneurs.

History is proof of this fact.

I firmly believe that change can be brought about in the environment in which you live, if you desire the change and work towards it with sincerity and dedication.
Although i do not deny that as humans we have to "depend on each other" i do know that hard work, sincerity and dediction are the tools with which success can be attained and changes can be brought about in the society in which you co-exist.

Indeed, these are morality theories imposing the ideal way of life, which does not occur in the 21st century. If it does, then I should be able to see it happening here in my location right now. However, 88% of the population here in third world countries are uneducated due to the lack of educational opportunities.

Why don't you visit my location to verify these information?



Well, Philippines is not one of this, especially with the corrupt government existing in this country. Why don't you try and search about the professional statistics, brain drain conditions, employments, education status, and the overall conditions of these third world countries.

Take note, Philippines has always been like this for the past 20 years. Don't you think the people here are not doing their best to alleviate their country from these conditions? Yes, they are doing soooo many things to uplift their country, but nothing is happening due to the corruption of their leaders. What can you say about that?

I do agree that certain country politicians are more corrupt than the rest. Aren't you aware of the political situation of India or for that matter china?
These are two countries where corruption exists at each and every level. Believe me when i say each and every level!

The situation is so bad that many of the great leaders have had to sacrifice their lives to due to corruption, Yes, murdered in cold blood.
Thats the level of corruption in India. How would you explain the assasination of Prime minister Indira Gandhi, Or even her son Rajiv Gandhi.
This is corruption.

I am not denying that fewer oppurtunities exist for People of poorer countries, what i am emphasizing is that people must struggle and fight for their success, for what they believe in.
I have personal experience with this. I was denied the right to education (higher) due to the several family constraints. But i realized the importance of higher education and enrolled for a distance learning course. Since then, there has been no looking back.

Do you consider these countries proficient sources of ESL writers? definitely Not. Now, can these be considered out of the topic? Definitely yes.





As far as I am concerned, we are only covering the FILIPINOS.

Kindly read the whole statements and messages between the lines. You are telling things based from theory and research of others. I am telling things based from my experience as an anthropologist here in this country and theories from my academic background.

Were you able to experience those statements of yours in China and India? If so, then I agree with you, but if not, well at least try to experience it first and be on the real setting than sticking in your ideal world.

Ideal things tend to blind people from the real scenario ya' know.

Please don't make comments about issues that you clearly do not understand.

Finally, an ESL writer who doesn't take things personally and actually understands the real issues!

The burden is on the company to prove to the public that the ESL writer is truly equal. The industry is packed with liars and dishonest companies from Pakistan, Ukraine, and, unfortunately, the Philippines.



Even when an ESL writer honestly thinks that he/she is equal to a native English-speaking writer, he/she is more than likely wrong because he/she does not understand certain intricacies of the English language (and American grammar/vernacular).


The bottom line is that if the owner of an essay-writing company from Ukraine is an ESL speaker him/herself, he/she is not qualified to--or CAPABLE of--judging an ESL writer's proficiency in English language writing. The slightest errors in grammar throughout a document can make the author seem quite ignorant. In general, only an AMERICAN--like me--catches those mistakes. I see such errors throughout most of the posts in this thread. The same errors appear in ESL papers delivered to customers. I've seen it a thousand times.

WB really has sense with his response. I am really intrigued by your answers.



Yes, a really good point to consider.

Now, let us raise another issue with Americans and ESL writer, specifically the Filipinos, since they are so far the most credible ESL writers. Considering American writers' undeniable skill in their language and ESL writers' refined English structuring and grammar awareness (yet not comparable with American speakers), how about in terms of analytical and academical experiences?

AMERICANS:
> 100% English awareness
> Good academic skills
> High cost of service -- $60-80 per page (rush order)

FILIPINO ESLs:
> 90% English awareness (verified and proven)
> Good academic skills
> Low cost of service -- $30-40 per page (rush order)

If you are a client, which one will you prefer?

If you are an employer, will you still hide the identity of your ESL writers?

With your personal opinion, do you think these conditions might still compromise the profit returns of these ESL writing companies?

NOTE:

My arguments may sound redundant or very much the same from the previous; however, each time some one answers, I make sure something is modified in the conditions. For those willing to answer the post, please do not take it seriously since this is just an intelligent conversation and sharing of opinions. Nothing personal for this current post.

Your questions are framed in such a way that--in order to answer, as is--one would have to assume that the foreign companies are honest. As I have proven time and time again, they are resoundingly NOT honest.

Foreign companies LIE about hiring only native English-speaking writers because the owners KNOW that profits will plummet if they advertise the truth.

Yes, I do consider India a proficient source of ESL writers. In fact, Indians are highly proficient in their use of the English language, besides many other languages, of course. The accents may differ.


And if Writing companies are hiring writers from india and are satisfied with their work, i see no reason why They should be left out of the discussion.

Of course unless you want to focus only on fillopino writers. Which company pays $30 and $60 PPP to their writers. I dont think they are so honest and straightforward that they'll pay their writers well enough. The best I've heard is "Upto $18" PP on most writing websites.




Regarding your second quote above, i am living in India and have experienced numerous problems due to corruption. I speak from personal experience.

Anyway, if you want to disclude India from this discussion regarding ESL profiency, then i guess I wont have much to say.
Good bye and good luck to you.

The errors which you notice and speak of are visible and comprehensible to me too.
And English is not my mothertongue. It is my second language.

Thats precisely the point I am trying to make.
Profiency (or lack of it) cannot and should not be generalized according to the country an individual belongs to. Because, profiency in any language, whether English, Hindi, Urdu, Chinese etc. can be acquired by way of practice.
And this is a trait (practice, to achieve perfection) which one can find in any individual, the World over.
The United States of America, india, Phillipines, China.............. just about any where..............

The errors are present throughout YOUR posts!

The situation and condition of India , a few years back, was known to the world. To many, India was a land of Elephants and snakes and black magic.............

It is only a decade and a half back, that India has made its mark in the world, and i daresay, this is due to the grit, determination and hardwork of a few individuals like Narayan murthy (Infosys technologies), Azim prmeji (Wipro), Ratan Tata (Tata motors- heard of the recent takeovers in the automobile sector?) and some more. They believed in India, in spite of the corruption, lack of good infrastructure, and political interferences.

The point that i am trying make is that A Change can be brought about, if one wills to. This, i speak not by referring to some source, its my personal experience. Even if a handful of people get together and do something good for society, In this case, lets say the phillipines, a change can be brought about.

And how?
Well, its a matter of personal choice. The choices are numerous.
Sponsor a child in your community who you think or know will perform, encourage this act among those who you know or can accomplish. let the cycle begin, and then ten years down the line, see the sea of change that has occurred.
This i speak not from some theorotical but personal experience, again. You simply need to lend a helping hand and see the numerous that aspire to reach out to you.
I know that the discussion has rambled away from the point, but you spoke of Phillipines and the scope (lack of) of develpment there, so.............
Thank you.

Thank you...........

Hahaha... riiiiiight..... ^____^

Not correct. As I stated, I made more last year from my writing than the average salary in the U.S. for a tenured professor, which is the area where an individual with a Ph.D. is most likely to be employed.

And your claim that Americans charge $60 to $70 per page but ESL's charge $30 for rush is rubbish. Just to use a couple of examples of the more prominent American companies:
Essaytown : 38$ per page for rush.
Papermasters : $32 or 33 per page for rush.
What American writers are charging $60 to 70 for rush?

The rest of your response is just a collection of additional, unevidenced assertions.

The fee of $60 is the max that any of the REAL, American companies charge:

mysecurepayment.com/research/order.php

The writer probably receives $30.

Interesting, I had never heard of that company.
My point still stands, however. There are plenty of American verified companies that charge in the 30ish range for rush rather than the 60+ range as inquirer suggested - the supposed price difference between proficient ESL writers and proficient American writers isn't very large.

Well yes, now that ESL writers that can give EFL writers a run for their money are actually accessible to the American/European buyer. ^_^ It's called competitive pricing. :p

You're suggesting now that Papermasters, Essaytown and others used to price at $60-70 per page and then dropped their prices to compete w/ ESL writers. Not true.