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Distinguish Between Those Writers Who Are Real And Those Who are Fake


Jun 6, 2012, 05:19PM | #
miki

Thanks for the PM.

I need 15 x posts to reply but will do so when I qualify. I'm ex-US resident so 'multi-lingual' humorous/humourous.


Jun 6, 2012, 07:27PM | #
I doubt I'll make it. You guys are too distracting and the thought of a scurry of Chipmunks bidding for my 'model dissertation' is enough to keep my nose to the grindstone.

Jun 6, 2012, 11:28PM | #
Cesca, you can put a message up on essaychat.com so miki can see it and contact you directly.

What accent do you speak with, if I may ask? I find it fascinating how the accents of people who move around a lot sometimes meld together two or more accents. I had a friend from Jamaica, who lived part-time in England, and people in both locations thought she spoke with an accent. It's kind of like that 'you're from everywhere and yet nowhere' thing.

Jun 7, 2012, 06:46AM | #
I wish I could claim a transatlantic accent Ishy but when you've spent your entire childhood in one country (the UK in my case) it tends to direct your accent forever. I've moved around a bit - especially in the US - so tend to sometimes use American language form ('I'm sat on the couch' v 'I'm sitting on the sofa', 'trunk' v 'boot', that kind of thing) but the accent is standard British. Having said that, in the US, it's often confused with Australian or Irish. In my experience, little is lost in translation between the various versions of spoken English, although the idioms are a bit different so can sometimes lead to a few (usually hilarious) misunderstandings.

I have a friend whose family left Iran as refugees when she was a child. She was raised in Holland, an undergrad in the USA, and is now an ESL teacher in the UK. Her accent is lovely but difficult to place. She speaks flawless, but slightly foreign-accented, English with a distinctly American intonation.

Given the amazing variety of English idioms and accents, the thing that surprises me is that 'standard' written English is the great language leveller. With the exception of slight differences in spelling between American and English forms, written English (and, by that, I don't mean the 'relaxed' type) is a universal standard. I couldn't tell that you were American, or the nativity of anyone else here who adopts a 'standard English' writing style, unless one of those spelling differences appeared. Same applies when you read anything written by a professional academic.

I've been really interested in reading the posts on this site as there seems to be such tension between native and non-native English speakers. I know several ESL speakers who write 'standard English' as well as, and often better than, natives but (and this seems to be the big differentiator) they have all been educated from an early age using this particular written form. Spoken English (in all its varieties) is of little help to those who wish to write professionally in English in any context, and especially academically - as it's so different and formal compared to the huge variety of spoken versions. It's an accident of birth whether you had access to this type of early education but very difficult to learn/adopt by the time you reach college age.

The issue that doesn't appear to feature as much here (which surprises me) is knowledge of subject. Being able to write standard, academic English is one thing, but what really matters is the writer's knowledge of a subject and his/her ability to comment/narrate/describe/analyse. A well-written paper reveals much more about knowledge of subject than one that is poorly written as it removes ambiguity, and a poorly-written paper which demonstrates subject insight will always be better received than a well-written load of trash.

Also, little is mentioned re: how much work is involved in research. Even if you know your subject well, the particularity of topic for most model papers requires research at anything other than basic undergrad level, and that takes time (lots of time for highest grades and/or highest college levels).

As I said previously, I'm thinking about dipping my toe into the 'professional' waters once I've completed my MA this summer and this site has been very helpful in pointing me toward the reputable agencies. To be honest, they seem to be in the minority and are exclusively US or UK-based, so it's a case of buyer/writer beware. Also, I think that only the very best writers would be able to make a decent income from this (and they are also easily identified here). You write well, have you considered trying this too?

Jun 7, 2012, 06:51AM | #
Cesca99:
Also, I think that only the very best writers would be able to make a decent income from this (and they are also easily identified here).

100 % Agreed.

Jun 7, 2012, 10:53AM | #
Cesca99:
The issue that doesn't appear to feature as much here (which surprises me) is knowledge of subject.

You'd be opening a mine field here if this issue was to become the focus. There's too much vanity going around; you could call it competitive rivalry.

WritersBeware  
Jun 7, 2012, 11:42AM | #
rwaimba2:
You'd be opening a mine field

One can't "open a mine field." You have combined "opening a can of worms" with "walking into a mine field." This is a perfect example of how ESL writers butcher essays.


rwaimba2:
was

were


rwaimba2:
There's too much vanity going around

Vanity has nothing to do with giving ESL hacks a reality check and protecting consumers.


WritersBeware  
Jun 7, 2012, 01:54PM | #
stu4:
You

PROOF?


stu4:
make fun

This isn't a schoolyard. It's a matter of enforcing business laws and ethics.


stu4:
ESL clients

That's complete bullshit. Nobody here is "making fun" of honest clients. As usual, you have no proof whatsoever.

Jun 7, 2012, 02:21PM | #
WritersBeware:
Nobody here is "making fun" of honest clients.

All ESL clients butcher their essay and butcher English language.

But IF they pay you, you respect him. If not - you laugh them and post racist comments. Amerika way of life.

Jun 7, 2012, 02:45PM | #
WritersBeware:
Vanity has nothing to do with giving ESL hacks a reality check and protecting consumers.


Fair enough, but what about the native-English hacks? There seem to be sufficient numbers of these to require intervention on behalf of their consumers too. You may say (and I would agree evidenced by the posts here) that the majority of hacks fall into the ESL category, but anyone who uses their services needs more than a reality check. The native-Es have their credibility universally reinforced by the amount of pro-ESL/anti-ESL rhetoric here (especially as the anti-ESL sentiment is expressed most eloquently by the best of this writer community), and that suggests you may be contributing to consumer vulnerability where the native-E hacks are concerned.

I have seen hack native-E writers/perspective writers challenged/exposed here but it pales into insignificance compared to the air time allocated to the ESLs (who, let's face it, are a weak target judging from what I've seen). I assume that Native-E hacks are more difficult to locate/expose than ESLs, but doesn't that suggest your (well-qualified) efforts should be targeted in their direction?

stu4:
You people at ********* make fun from your ESL clients too... Sadd

Erm... I think you have single-handedly damaged the credibility of ESL writers more here in the couple of posts I read than the collective efforts of WB, Pheelyx, et al (look it up) could achieve in a decade.

'Better to keep silent and be thought a fool than speak out and confirm it'.

Jun 7, 2012, 02:49PM | #
Cesca99:
I think you have single-handedly damaged the credibility of ESL writers

Only moron generalize about million ESL writers based on one ESL writer.

pheelyks  
Jun 7, 2012, 02:50PM | #
Cesca99:
anti-ESL

No one here is anti-ESL. Many of us are against ESL writers who do not disclose their language abilities to customers who hire them for their writing.

Cesca99:
I have seen hack native-E writers/perspective writers challenged/exposed here but it pales into insignificance compared to the air time allocated to the ESLs

The people who show up on the forum are the people who get responded to--it's pretty straightforward. "Native-E hacks," as you call them, are much fewer and farther between, and they tend to disappear faster when they're exposed.


WritersBeware  
Jun 7, 2012, 03:09PM | #
Cesca99:
Fair enough, but what about the native-English hacks?

Um, you should probably read through my old posts before ASSUMING that I haven't addressed native morons.

Jun 7, 2012, 03:50PM | #
WritersBeware:
you should probably read through my old posts before ASSUMING that I haven't addressed native morons.


Cesca99:
I have seen hack native-E writers/perspective writers challenged/exposed here


As you see, I never assume. When I hedge I make that explicit. Don't you?

WritersBeware  
Jun 7, 2012, 03:56PM | #
Cesca99:
As you see, I never assume.

Bullcrap. Your entire post is based on your ASSUMPTION that I have not already criticized native morons. Denying that fact makes you lose credibility really quickly.

Cesca99:
Fair enough, but what about the native-English hacks? There seem to be sufficient numbers of these to require intervention on behalf of their consumers too. You may say (and I would agree evidenced by the posts here) that the majority of hacks fall into the ESL category, but anyone who uses their services needs more than a reality check. The native-Es have their credibility universally reinforced by the amount of pro-ESL/anti-ESL rhetoric here (especially as the anti-ESL sentiment is expressed most eloquently by the best of this writer community), and that suggests you may be contributing to consumer vulnerability where the native-E hacks are concerned.

I have seen hack native-E writers/perspective writers challenged/exposed here but it pales into insignificance compared to the air time allocated to the ESLs (who, let's face it, are a weak target judging from what I've seen). I assume that Native-E hacks are more difficult to locate/expose than ESLs, but doesn't that suggest your (well-qualified) efforts should be targeted in their direction?

Jun 7, 2012, 04:56PM | #
pheelyks:
Many of us are against ESL writers who do not disclose their language abilities to customers who hire them for their writing


Yes, that's expressed frequently, and I understand the frustration of those who don't misrepresent themselves toward those who do. Especially so when the middle-men are exploiting people across the demand/supply chain. It's not clear how many of the ESL people here are writers affiliated with charlatan agencies, and how many just operate these agencies or market themselves independently, but I guess my scorn is reserved for the latter, and my pity for the former. Their contract conditions and pay seem truly appalling so it's hardly surprising that they are desperate to access a system which provides fair contract terms for writers at a cost driven by US/UK market forces. It's a shame that their appreciation of the skills needed to access these markets are far less than their awareness of the benefits.

I read an exchange between you and an Eastern European agency with which you were once affiliated. What struck me wasn't simply the examples of the ridiculous expectations imposed on the writers (a 2-hour response required in the middle of the night, being fined without due process or cause), but that the agency rep. thought this was perfectly reasonable. Stunned!

This site has been really useful in many ways, not least at providing reality checks for those, like me, who are considering the possibility of joining the bun fight at some point. It's certainly been worthwhile and has answered questions and dispelled illusions in equal measure. Anyone who thinks academic writing is an easy money-maker after researching this site is obviously in denial or deluded.

Jun 7, 2012, 05:44PM | #
WB: Where I have assumed anything, you will note that I have made it explicit thus paving the way to have any such assumption contradicted/explained, which is exactly the response I received from Pheelyx. I did not assume, in fact I conceded, that I have seen native-English writers challenged on this site, but was interested in why the forum focuses so much on exposing ESLs. I have no position to defend, or experience to support, any debate on these issues - I'm simply seeking information which will either confirm/contradict my impressions. However, if I was seeking a debate, rest assured that I would never resort to personal attack or cussing as a means of expression. It's ineffective as a form of persuasion, and deters others from participation. Of course it's your prerogative to express yourself as you wish, as it is mine to choose not to respond.

pheelyks  
Jun 7, 2012, 06:29PM | #
Cesca99:
but was interested in why the forum focuses so much on exposing ESLs

Try re-reading my response. It wasn't that long.

Cesca99:
I would never resort to personal attack or cussing as a means of expression

Wait until you've been here awhile.

Jun 7, 2012, 06:31PM | #
Cesca99:
Having said that, in the US, it's often confused with Australian or Irish.

I apologize on behalf of my compatriots. We're generally not so great at placing accents, and tend to group any native non-American accent under the umbrella of "must be British or something." I once chatted online with a guy from Birmingham, and he was complaining about the bias against English people in American film. He used the 1997 Titanic film as an example, and said that during the rescue scene, the guy who encourages people to keep looking for survivors was Welsh. He couldn't believe that I was oblivious to the different accent when I reassured him that the vast majority of American audiences would have no idea that he wasn't English. After living in France for a while, I've gotten better at accents. I simply had greater exposure to multiple regional speakers at my university--there were loads of students from the British Isles. I would be at a loss when faced with a South African or Australian vs. New Zealand accent though.

What was also interesting about France is how it emphasized British English and pronunciation in its English program. I would spend hours a day reading Harry Potter out loud in an English accent so that I'd be able to accurately complete phonetic transcriptions in IPA that were graded using English phonetics exclusively. I'd start saying a word in my head the American way, and then have to kick myself and adopt a different "voice" inside my own head. It made me feel quite silly. Most of my French professors stood by this and said that BBC English was the "correct" academic form of the English language. They had their prejudices in French as well, and scoffed at the idea of someone from Marseille teaching French. I thought it was sad.

Cesca99:
It's an accident of birth whether you had access to this type of early education but very difficult to learn/adopt by the time you reach college age.

I think the same can also be said of native speakers. I teach adult basic education, and the past few years have shown me that composition skills can't be studied and learned like other things can. Sure, you can improve, but if you're 25 and you still struggle to write in complete sentences, you probably aren't going to end up with a Nobel for literature. That's why encouraging people to read to their children from birth (or even from before birth) is one of my passions. Now studies are suggesting that even math achievement is related to reading skills.

Cesca99:
A well-written paper reveals much more about knowledge of subject than one that is poorly written as it removes ambiguity, and a poorly-written paper which demonstrates subject insight will always be better received than a well-written load of trash.

I'm not sure I can agree with that completely. I think it just depends on the situation. When I was in a US civilization course in France, I totally slacked off and when it came time to do the in-class historical commentary on an essay, I bullsh*tted my way through without knowing anything detailed about the events that the author was talking about. Even though my paper contained some factual errors that were pretty horrendous, I still got one of the best grades because of the quality of the writing itself. I think critical thinking skills have a wider application than just your particular domain. My BA is in English language, literature, and civilization, but I think I'd feel confident in any of the social sciences and humanities. Now, there's no way in hell I'd come near an electrical engineering paper. Bullsh*tting only takes you so far...

Cesca99:
You write well, have you considered trying this too?

I think that just might be the first compliment on this site! Thank you. Unfortunately, I lack self-discipline in a major way and my personal life is too distracting/chaotic. I think I could do proofreading, but apparently there's not a lot of demand for it. I end up doing a lot of stuff for free just to not have pressure on me. A few months ago I helped two young men with Asperger's Syndrome and ADD succeed in their college English composition class, but it was murder. I'm afraid I wouldn't have the patience to baby clients when they're being...challenging. I actually had to spend ten minutes convincing someone that they in fact did require a thesis statement in every paper, not just in their first one "so my teacher knows I can do it once."


Jun 8, 2012, 06:09AM | #
Ishy:
Most of my French professors stood by this and said that BBC English was the "correct" academic form of the English language.

I had to smile at this. I've also spent a reasonable time in France but have no experience of the education system. However, given the antipathy toward the English language demonstrated by the vast majority of French people, I'm amazed they are concerned with niceties like 'BBC English'. I'm trying to picture you being forced to read Harry Potter in a 'BBC' British accent (*laughs loudly) - only the French could dream that one up.

Did you know that they actually have government-enforced quotas to restrict the amount of English language content in broadcasting? UK/US music/film/TV are all subject to this quota. Language protectionism gone mad!

Interestingly, the college campuses here are so overtly class-conscious these days that the mere mention of the term 'BBC English' is enough to raise the heckles of Humanities professors. Accents are definitely not an issue for English-language students.

Ishy:
I think the same can also be said of native speakers.

Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I completely agree, and my 'accident of birth' comment applies equally to both native and ESL. As an undergrad, my professors were always lamenting the dismal standard of written English demonstrated by their students. If even college students are unable to make the grade, it suggests that our schools are failing to provide the levels of literacy expected/required by employers. Like you, I also proof-read work to help other students and was amazed that so many had managed the UK equivalent of High School graduation with such poor levels of written English. Even acquiring a degree (in any subject) is no guarantee of decent literacy skills it seems.

Maybe this (diminishing?) standard of written English contributes to a different marking emphasis here? This is very much anecdotal evidence, but high standards of literacy only appear mandatory in order to achieve the highest college grades. The vast majority of students here achieve a '2.i' despite many having very mediocre writing skills. The range of aptitude covered by this grade is now so wide that it detriments those who achieve at the top of that range. Several of my friends fell into this category, and were pretty resentful that, despite regularly achieving top grades, the algorithm for overall degree calculation left them categorised with students who were far less able (and hard-working).

Ishy:
I'm afraid I wouldn't have the patience to baby clients when they're being...challenging

Love your use of understatement. There's a very different 'power' dynamic between supplier-client and teacher-student so I appreciate your meaning.

Ishy:
I lack self-discipline in a major way and my personal life is too distracting/chaotic.

At least you're sufficiently self-aware to be able to assess your suitability for this kind of work. I don't share those specific attributes, but I am a bit too perfectionist (anal?) and, therefore, not too sure I would be able to deliver within the timescales expected by this industry. They seem pretty short to me. I don't doubt my ability to write something of a decent standard at junior college levels within those timescales, but an original, 3,000-word, first-class senior paper would take me much, MUCH longer than 5 days, and a 5,000-word MA paper of 'merit' standard (let alone 'distinction') would require weeks, not days. I admire anyone who could pull that off.

Ishy:
My BA is in English language, literature, and civilization

... and mine is in American history, literature and politics. My MA is in American Literature. I'm not sure what this says about us as individuals but, given our respective nationalities, this is an interesting coincidence. :)

Jun 10, 2012, 04:37PM | #
Cesca99:
Maybe this (diminishing?) standard of written English contributes to a different marking emphasis here? This is very much anecdotal evidence, but high standards of literacy only appear mandatory in order to achieve the highest college grades. The vast majority of students here achieve a '2.i' despite many having very mediocre writing skills. The range of aptitude covered by this grade is now so wide that it detriments those who achieve at the top of that range. Several of my friends fell into this category, and were pretty resentful that, despite regularly achieving top grades, the algorithm for overall degree calculation left them categorised with students who were far less able (and hard-working).

I am sorry but you sound too judgmental. It seems that each of these "empirical findings" has been tested and retested by you. The fact is (empirical - noted in linguistics and related books), a language evolves like anything else in the world. Maybe you need to read a bit on linguistics. I can suggest a few good reads for you if you'd like.

Jun 10, 2012, 06:53PM | #
Cesca99:
Did you know that they actually have government-enforced quotas to restrict the amount of English language content in broadcasting? UK/US music/film/TV are all subject to this quota. Language protectionism gone mad!

Yeah. I can understand their motivations, but in practice it's a little heavy-handed. At least there's access to English only television channels. They're not part of standard cable, but I got really into BBC and CNN International. But yes, you'd think that if their language was as great as they claim, they wouldn't need to invest so much into preserving it.

Cesca99:
Even acquiring a degree (in any subject) is no guarantee of decent literacy skills it seems.

I'd still expect someone with a master's degree in English/journalism/writing/etc. to be able to write fairly well or better. However, everyone else is pretty hit or miss. I haven't attended an American university, but I have read many papers at the community college level. I agree that instructors 'look the other way.' I'm not surprised at the state of things, because grammar instruction is extremely limited in public education. In my case, I received grammar lessons at the age of 12, then a few more class sessions at 15 in an honors English class, and then a brief overview in my senior year as part of a terminal English course that was mandatory for all graduating students. Our final 'exam' asked us to correctly place apostrophes and commas, and decide whether book titles should be underlined or put in quotations. So many people failed (and this was right after taking the course) that the school offered two makeup sessions preceded by test prep lessons. The minimum passing grade was 70%. The English department then posted a page with the top 5 scores on every door in the main building, as if it was a huge accomplishment.

Cesca99:
Several of my friends fell into this category, and were pretty resentful that, despite regularly achieving top grades, the algorithm for overall degree calculation left them categorised with students who were far less able (and hard-working).

I can understand that. In my graduating class there was a girl with Down's Syndrome, who was put into 'easy' classes like aerobics and cooking, and left school with the same exact diploma I did. Now, her level of ability would be apparent in a job interview, but I think it's reflective of a culture that wants everyone to achieve the same things, and nothing should be out of reach just because someone is limited mentally or physically. Again, I understand the motivation behind the intention, but it can be problematic in practice.

Cesca99:
an original, 3,000-word, first-class senior paper would take me much, MUCH longer than 5 days

Apparently, the professional freelancers here can do multiple ten-page papers...a DAY. That's the reason why it wouldn't be profitable for me, because I write about a page an hour. I get sidetracked easily and start reading the links on a page I linked to from another linked page, and all of a sudden I've gone from looking up a film noir actor to the construction of girdles.

Cesca99:
... and mine is in American history, literature and politics. My MA is in American Literature. I'm not sure what this says about us as individuals but, given our respective nationalities, this is an interesting coincidence. :)

Very cool! I should have been more specific about my degree though--I say 'English' because 'Anglophone' gets me blank stares here. So the overall degree is on all English-speaking countries, but I did choose electives in the English short story, Irish history, and the Industrial Revolution. On the American side I did African-American literature, film noir, religion in the US, and American literature. My favorite was the English short story.

MeoKhan:
I am sorry but you sound too judgmental. It seems that each of these "empirical findings" has been tested and retested by you. The fact is (empirical - noted in linguistics and related books), a language evolves like anything else in the world. Maybe you need to read a bit on linguistics. I can suggest a few good reads for you if you'd like.

I didn't find her (just realized I don't know for sure, but 'Cesca' sounds feminine, so I'll just go with it) out of line at all. She even goes out of her way to describe her observations as anecdotal, not empirical. Of course language evolves, but it retains its primary purpose of communication, and the students in question are not being very effective communicators.
I'm reminded of something my first husband did. He had recently qualified as an elementary school teacher, and had been studying theories of language at a superficial level. He really liked the idea of language being a sort of art, and the speaker being an artist that could choose color, brush, and paint on a whim. I agree to an extent, but I believe communication stops where the other person's incomprehension starts. Anyway, we're sitting down to New Year's Eve dinner, and his brother calls his name from the far side of table. At first my husband didn't catch it, but eventually he turned to his brother and said "I didn't hear you when you 'm'as interloqué'"--which means 'to take aback, to shock.' My former sister-in-law, also an elementary school teacher, asked "Did you mean 'm'as interpellé'?"--which means 'to call out to, to shout to.' My (thankfully former) husband proceeded to get into an argument with her on how he has the right to use language the way he wants, and he was just being creative. His father, always first to rush to his defense, got up and looked in his dictionary...and then quietly closed it and put it back on the shelf and sat down :D

Jun 11, 2012, 12:29AM | #
rwaimba2:
You'd be opening a mine field here if this issue was to become the focus


yeah.... it would be a huge mine field of ~5ENL writers here

Cesca99:
It's a shame that their appreciation of the skills needed to access these markets are far less than their awareness of the benefits.


That's actually quite sad. Most of "professional ESL writers" do not show a slightest desire to improve they skills; they just envy the market creators (another foreigners), by whom awfully exploited, they came here, to have their dues get paid back by even more naive customers. It would be quite awesome if they underlie their strengths like their specialization or dissertations field they can work on, or just anything worth showing off. Most likely then, these linguistic shortcomings would not be such a huge deal, if trumped by the deep knowledge. but in most cases that wouldn't be an issue...

Ishy:
I think critical thinking skills have a wider application than just your particular domain. My BA is in English language, literature, and civilization, but I think I'd feel confident in any of the social sciences and humanities.


This is so true. Power of marketing ;) As the eloquence shines through a well written, witty paper, it can always save a sorry ass out of the trouble in case of the knowledge flaws. If the poor writing skills get on the way of the best factual information, it is still a bad reading, hence a bad paper. It is very possible then that the entire liberal arts' field may be covered by the one good English writer, with much of a dedication to non-side-tracked researches ;)
Once we move to the science side of the equation however, there is no way that a great-english-poor-knowledge research paper would defend itself. Even though an internet and few passwords to scientific journals could make a trick ;) but one has to be willing to break through and understand the topic
Also the whole issue of literacy, in a wide context, and any science as a secondary to it, are well documented in psychology. There is a pretty small threshold for acquiring speech and communication skills (closely related to literacy) whereas we have an entire life span to learn all other details like engineering or medicine ;)

Jun 11, 2012, 07:11PM | #
Ishy:
'Cesca' sounds feminine

Correctly reasoned. Which reminds me of a recent incident of ultra-PC-ness on the use of gender. I was seriously patronised by a faculty member for daring to gender a nation! I doubt the nation concerned would object to this particular linguistic peculiarity but it was decent of the academic (female) to be so concerned for its identity (*sarcasm). I couldn't resist the obvious retort though. 'How do the French cope?' :) First time I've seen her speechless (a relief in this particular case).

Ishy:
The English department then posted a page with the top 5 scores on every door in the main building, as if it was a huge accomplishment.

It sounds like it was - from their perspective.

Ishy:
Now, her level of ability would be apparent in a job interview, but I think it's reflective of a culture that wants everyone to achieve the same things

Which, of course, bears no relationship to how employers recruit. Considering individual differences are the essence of how human society operates, this attempt to homogenise is misplaced and counter-productive. I've noted that job applications are becoming increasingly complex and prescriptive as a way of differentiating between people. It now takes a day to accommodate personal statements and accompanying letters, in addition to a multiple-page application form.

Ishy:
Apparently, the professional freelancers here can do multiple ten-page papers...a DAY

A great example of individual difference as there is no way I could ever imagine reaching that level of output. Procrastination and distraction: the banes of my existence. Today, when I should have been focusing on H.L. Mencken, within 10 minutes I was checking out how to remove bees from a chimney!

Ishy:
His father, always first to rush to his defense, got up and looked in his dictionary...and then quietly closed it and put it back on the shelf and sat down

A wise person knows when to withdraw gracefully in defeat :)

Ishy:
She even goes out of her way to describe her observations as anecdotal, not empirical. Of course language evolves, but it retains its primary purpose of communication, and the students in question are not being very effective communicators

Thanks for that. Obviously the ability to communicate in writing is also subject to the ability of the reader to note all the constructs of a sentence. In spoken language it's easier to be understood given the advantage of tone, expression and body language.

miki:
There is a pretty small threshold for acquiring speech and communication skills (closely related to literacy)

I suspected that was the case, which makes the 'accident of birth' advantage even more poignant.

Where are you miki? and Ishy: how long were you living in France?

Jun 11, 2012, 10:18PM | #
Cesca99:
Ishy: how long were you living in France?

A couple months under six years. I went over there to live with an internet boyfriend and his parents. What can I say, I was 18 and I desperately wanted to get out of the black hole of a town where I lived. I lived in a suburb of Bordeaux (Martignas) for 4 years, then moved to the countryside 40 minutes outside Paris in a village called Bouleurs. Not much to do/see there, and there was no public transportation and we only had one car (a stick shift, which I never did master). So I did my courses by correspondence, exercised 3 hours a day, and watched copious amounts of Japanese anime. A year later, we moved to Bussy St. Georges, a half hour from downtown Paris. Our apartment was separated by only a public square from the train station, so I could step out my door and be on a train in three minutes. Within comfortable walking distance there was a grocery store, two Asian grocers, a florist, a bookstore, two bakeries, a butcher, the post office, two hairstylists, three pizza places, a pub that served fish and chips (with an admittedly off-putting frozen taste--I know England gets to put their flag on fish and chips, but we do the dish justice in the Pacific Northwest too. Locally the specialty is beer-battered fresh halibut with tartar sauce, French fries, and coleslaw), a beauty spa, a library, two parks, and a plethora of restaurants including Lebanese, Thai, Vietnamese, Indian, Turkish, Chinese, Japanese, and traditional French. And of course, you know, that little hamlet called Paris 20 minutes away by train. But my divorce left me without a legitimate visa, so I moved back home, where I promptly gained 140 pounds. After my grandfather passes away, maybe I'll go back now that I'm married to another European :-)

Jun 14, 2012, 03:13PM | #
Hey, the 'university of life' is the best of all experiences in teens/twenties (and often later). Sounds like you could write a book :) I much enjoyed reading about your European adventures.

The 'Pacific Northwest' sounds like Oregon or Washington. This is one of the areaa of the US still missing from my list, but definitely features highly on 'next to visit'. I lived in Chicago for a while.... and then in the South for a few years, but have been fortunate to spend time in other regions - just missing the far North East and your region.

Sounds like you're a Europhile. My family had a holiday home in South-West France for twenty years (just outside Bergerac) and I love much about French culture and history, but I have problems with the bureaucracy. I'm not used to the inefficiency of the French systems, and they were still struggling with email as a standard form of communication years after the internet was adopted in the UK/US (and elsewhere). I'm not a fluent French speaker but can get by with the average bureaucrat (luckily). I still own some land there and may get around to doing something with it when I eventually recover from my last run-in with the ridiculous French system of planning.

The last time I was in Paris I ended up being chased by a crazed drug addict in Montmartre - not something which falls within my usual holiday experience - and have been a tad reluctant to venture back since. Comsidering my 'offence' appeared to be sitting at a pavement cafe with friends, I was a bit discombobulated. But, then again, this is the only city I know where you can buy cooked quail and champagne from a pharmacy at 3 a.m. !

Glad to hear your previous experience didn't deter you from pursuing the Euro-US 'entente cordiale'. My former husband was American so I also appreciate international relations (in the wider context) - one of the more positive aspects of globalisation.

I expect we'll still be here when you're ready to venture across the Atlantic again :) Well, assuming the danged Eurozone resolves its current.... erm.... 'difficulties'.

By the way, halibut and tartare sauce sounds deliicious, but much too 'posh' by British fish 'n' chips standards. As you know, we're reared on cod with chunky chips and ketchup.... the fresher the better.

Jun 30, 2012, 07:28PM | #
pheelyks:
Excellent notion. I'll start. What country are you from, because it's very clear that you're not entirely fluent in English?


Its very impolite to ask anyone of his country just because he or she makes a mistake.

One may be good in a language but if it is used in impolite way, the goodness is lost. One needs to study on and learn manners and ettiquetes before speaking in a forum. It does not matter how good one is in a language rather what motives are expressed by the use of the language.

Jun 30, 2012, 09:34PM | #
if you were really interested, Marsvictor, you may know that pheelkys no longer shows his sorry face here.

...but you're not really interested. you're here to offer your own services and pester this forum with jeffry.glyndwr@gmail.com ads.

here in the Wild Wild West of essayscam, justice is "an eye for an eye."

I will, therefore, now spam jeffry.glyndwr by sending mass messages, signing up for free stuff using this email, and adding it to spam lists, so that it will soon be over-run. get ready for some donkey prOn, you unethical poacher. get your clients elsewhere.

I invite others reading this to do the same-- take a little extra time, and get some free justice. let's bury "Jeffry" in spam.

thanks, and cheers, "Jeffry!"

Jul 1, 2012, 02:30AM | #
Hello Editor75

I am sorry that I posted my email address here. In fact I did write things in one seating before I knew the rules. I am sorry. You may try to delete my email addresses or even the posts; but please do not deactivate my account. I have been here only for a few hours. I didn't know this forum existed. I hope you will be understanding.


Jul 1, 2012, 06:41AM | #
johnmerit:
No email addresses and contact details are allowed I think.


Sorry Johnmerit; I didn't know it. I began to write as soon as I found this treasure. When 24 hours will pass, I will PM someone (I believe the administrator) to delete my posts.

Jul 1, 2012, 07:08AM | #
Ishy:
Apparently, the professional freelancers here can do multiple ten-page papers...a DAY. That's the reason why it wouldn't be profitable for me, because I write about a page an hour. I get sidetracked easily and start reading the links on a page I linked to from another linked page, and all of a sudden I've gone from looking up a film noir actor to the construction of girdles.
Not easily and not that regularly. I routinely write a single 10-pg paper overnight and could do two in 24 hours if really necessary, but a more typical night for me (like the last 8 hours or so) would be a 1-pg paper, an 8-pg paper, and then a 5-pg paper. About 10 pages a day on average in some format would pretty much be a requirement to make any kind of a decent living doing this. Some days it's closer to 5 and other days it's closer to 15 or 20.
Highly-experienced professional writer located in NYC. JD (Law) from NYLS. nycfreelancewriter.homestead.com/services.html

Jul 1, 2012, 10:40AM | #
btw (and also as a note to potential customers of hacks poaching here), this is not an industry in which one can guarantee anything. writers who guarantee results = massive red flag

Jul 1, 2012, 11:34AM | #
editor75:
writers who guarantee results = massive red flag


I do gurantee results in business studies, Level 7 (i.e., masters degree minimum). Any challenges, please come with work. I will accept your challenge with very nominal fees as my service charge. And you are encouraged to post your feedback about my work here.


Jul 1, 2012, 12:44PM | #
editor75:
MarsVictor, you are not fooling anyone. a PhD in English? you can't even tell countable from non-countable nouns yet. you still need ESL lessons; anyone who hires you is a fool.



Thats the mistake you do editor75. A PhD is not about the efficiency of countable and non-countable nouns. It is much more than those silly things with which you boast everyday. Language is an important part of the whole process. There are more in a PhD degree than you can know without qualifying for it; and if by mistake if you have one, you need a second one to understand what I say.




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