| joey009 |
|
Sep 17, 07, 11:40PM
| #81 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
Both Fae77 and julie24963 seem to be Filipino. I'm a Filipino myself. I read this through pinoy penster the same way I suppose Fae and Julie read it. I've written for some of the companies that you call fraudulent for hiring people like me while pretending to hire whites only. I get paid fine.
I have a question. Do you have a problem with me?
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Edited by: julie24963 Sep 17, 07, 11:42PM
| #82 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: WritersBeware You can make whatever bullsh*t excuses that you like as to why your posts contain so many errors. You challenged me, and you lost. Pack your bags. You have nothing to contribute to this forum, except demonstrating how to make a fool of oneself.
Touched a raw nerve there did I? I was unaware that posting on here required the use of perfect grammar and I did not hold myself up as an expert, as you put it, I merely pointed out that I mark students essays. I hardly think that qualifies anyone as an expert.
I rightly class myself as an expert in law, having qualified as a barrister, and working in the courts as a prosecutor. My membership of the Bar Council also entitles me to class myself as an expert in the field of law.
When I first challenged your rudeness, which by the way I still stand by, I was not in this least bothered about ensuring any of my posts were grammatically correct. You chose to attack my use of grammar as you could not excuse your rudeness to people, and then proceeded to challenge this to defer the subject away from your rudeness.
This is not some personal vendetta, though you seem determined on making it one. I am just as abhorrent of anyone else that resorts to personal insults and attacks on others just to get their point across. I am extremely disgusted with your use of expletives as written above, and find this inexcusable. This is the sort of behaviour I would expect from a child, who cannot get their own way, and as such I am going to treat you as one.
You are right, the topic is closed, but not because of the reasons mentioned by you above. From my point of view the topic is closed because you are rude and obnoxious and are not worthy of any respect. I will not pamper to your desire to continue being rude, and I am certainly not prepared to continue talking to someone who resorts to vile language when they are challenged about their rudeness. Goodbye!
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 17, 07, 11:52PM
| #83 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: joey009 Both Fae77 and julie24963 seem to be Filipino
Joey I am most certainly not Filipino. I am British born and bred. I live in England and work as a barrister in Lincolnshire. I have never been outside of the UK in all of my life.
Just because I defended those the WB was making comments against it does not follow that I am of that nationality. I abhor any form of race discrimination, which I suppose is good given that I work alongside people from many nations, and I am just as prepared to stand up and comment on the rudeness of anyone else on this forum.
I have no problem with you at all Joey as you have never been rude to anyone on here, however, should you resort to such behaviour then I would feel obliged to comment.
|
|
| Lavinia |
|
Sep 18, 07, 12:27AM
| #84 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 547
|
julie - your last post demonstrates my point. your priorities are way off. you have no problem with unethical behavior, which is particularly disturbing since you claim to be an expert on the law, but you feel duty bound to correct rudeness.
hey joey, i have a problem with you. you knowingly perpetrate a fraud by working for a company that you know lies about your qualifications and background. you should have more self respect for yourself and stop working for those criminals.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Edited by: julie24963 Sep 18, 07, 12:58AM
| #85 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
The issue of where Joey works is for his own conscience, and it is not up to me to condemn or condone whatever he chooses to do. In my opinion students should be doing this work themselves anyway, and not relying on any essay writing services to provide the essays for them. I certainly had no assistance with my work and did very well in all of my exams and coursework. It would never have entered my head to use one of these services as I would not trust anyone to write my work for me.
I admit I have written for students, and I am happy to take their money if they are foolish enough to want to part with it. Get real! If you have a choice between paying £100 for an essay or using one of the cheaper companies that only charge £30 you can expect a less quality paper. The same is true in all walks of life. If you buy a sofa at £300 it is obviously not going to be as good as one that costs £1000.
In my opinion ALL students should do their own work and not rely on others to write the essays and then pass these off as if they are their own work. As I no longer write for students, because I disagree with the way in which they pass the work off as their own rather than use it as a guideline, I think that all essay writing sites should be abolished and the students be made to do their own work. At the end of the day they are only kidding themselves that they have the capability to write a good essay by passing off other people's work as their own.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 02:22AM
| #86 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
This site's name is "EssayScam.org," not "EssayCourtesy.org."
I'm not polite to any of the following types of people:
1. criminals
2. frauds
3. dishonest, ESL writers who pose as native English-speaking Americans
4. apologists
From the APOLOGIST HYPOCRITE, julie24963:
Quoting: julie24963 In my opinion ALL students should do their own work and not rely on others to write the essays and then pass these off as if they are their own work.
julie24963 is not only a criminal apologist, but an all-star hypocrite, as well:
Quoting: julie24963 I admit I have written for students, and I am happy to take their money if they are foolish enough to want to part with it.
Get lost, julie24963. Your posts are worthless.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 02:28AM
| #87 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Not a hypocrite, just honest. I also pointed out that I NO LONGER write for them, as I consider it unethical that they should submit my work as though it is their own.
Quoting: WritersBeware julie24963 is not only a criminal apologist, but an all-star hypocrite, as well:
Tell that to all the criminal I have successfully prosecuted and put behind bars. The real criminals are those committing murders, rapists and child abusers. Low on the agenda is those that rip off lazy students who cannot be bothered to get off their bums and write their own essays.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 02:32AM
| #88 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
WB you talk about essay companies who lie to students about their credential, what about students lying to their academic establishments by passing someone else's work off as their own?
|
|
| joey009 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 02:37AM
| #89 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
Quoting: Lavinia hey joey, i have a problem with you. you knowingly perpetrate a fraud by working for a company that you know lies about your qualifications and background. you should have more self respect for yourself and stop working for those criminals.
Is it my fault that jobs that I could "honestly" acquire in the Philippines pays squat? Is it my fault that our ****ing politicians mooch off our taxes so much that there is virtually nothing left for us to live on? Where I live, goverment employees won't process your papers without a bribe. Where I live, you get charged as much as 15% off your wages and another 12% off anything you buy. Where I live, roads keep getting repaired even if there's nothin wrong with them just so the local congressman can get his commission from contractors. If I work a full 8 hours a day here, I get less than $250 a month. Writing homework for other people pays more than twice of that for less work time.
Americans must be way more honest since you people can apparently turn your noses up on me for trying to get by by doing what I do best the best way I can.
You got a problem with me? Working my job means being able to put food on the table for my little siblings. It means being able to send them to school and being able to go to school myself. If the consequence of that is you or anyone else here having a problem with me, **** you.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 03:16AM
| #90 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
Your circumstances, however unfortunate, do not give you the right to lie, cheat, and steal from innocent consumers. You are the willing, enabling factor in the criminal enterprise for which you dishonestly work.
Criminal outfits like AccessEssays.com and EssayWriters.net could not survive without the willing cooperation of crooked writers.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 03:25AM
| #91 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: WritersBeware Criminal outfits like AccessEssays.com and EssayWriters.net could not survive without the willing cooperation of crooked writers.
And students might not pass their courses if they do not get others to do their work for them!!
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Sep 18, 07, 03:37AM
| #92 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
OK, everyone knows that you are an apologist for criminal behavior. For you, two "wrongs" do make a "right." We get it--no need to beat a dead horse.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 03:49AM
| #93 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: WritersBeware OK, everyone knows that you are an apologist for criminal behavior. For you, two "wrongs" do make a "right." We get it--no need to beat a dead horse.
That is not my point at all as well you know, but then I would expect you to defend students who submit work as their own as you are obvioulsy making a profit from writing their work for them. Does it not prick your conscience that students are submitting your work as their own?
|
|
| joey009 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 05:36AM
| #94 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
Quoting: WritersBeware Your circumstances, however unfortunate, do not give you the right to lie, cheat, and steal from innocent consumers. You are the willing, enabling factor in the criminal enterprise for which you dishonestly work.
**** that and **** you. I've rarely had a customer complaint and whenever I do, it's always from some schmoe who's trying to get a freebie. You're just pissed because we get the action that you're supposed to be getting. You're one greedy ***** aint'cha?
|
|
| joey009 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 05:39AM
| #95 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
*yipes.. after reading about how fat and ugly people make you out to be, I've decided to retract my second statement. I won't **** you if you were the last she-whale on the planet!*
Sa mga pinoy na nakakabasa nito: palagay ko, kasing taba nitong balyenang to si malou fernandez. Magkasing fanet kasi sila ng ugali.
|
|
| pious |
|
Sep 18, 07, 10:11AM
| #96 |
Joined: Mar 10, 07
Posts: 73
|
Quoting: joey009 Is it my fault that jobs that I could "honestly" acquire in the Philippines pays squat? Is it my fault that our ****ing politicians mooch off our taxes so much that there is virtually nothing left for us to live on? Where I live, goverment employees won't process your papers without a bribe. Where I live, you get charged as much as 15% off your wages and another 12% off anything you buy. Where I live, roads keep getting repaired even if there's nothin wrong with them just so the local congressman can get his commission from contractors.
Maybe it's the fault of your president who, we heard, cheated her way to the presidency. How can a morally depraved leader who lacks public approval and confidence properly serve her citizens? A counterfeit president is there only for the power and never the service.
|
|
| EW_writer |
|
Edited by: EW_writer Sep 18, 07, 10:19AM
| #97 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,171
|
This is getting interesting ^_____^
|
|
| Lavinia |
|
Edited by: Lavinia Sep 18, 07, 10:43AM
| #98 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 547
|
Quoting: julie24963 The issue of where Joey works is for his own conscience, and it is not up to me to condemn or condone whatever he chooses to do. In my opinion students should be doing this work themselves anyway, and not relying on any essay writing services to provide the essays for them. I certainly had no assistance with my work and did very well in all of my exams and coursework. It would never have entered my head to use one of these services as I would not trust anyone to write my work for me.
i agree with you that students should not be passing the work of others off as their own. i think that your judgement of individuals who purchase essays is overly harsh, however. not everyone cheats. as has been posted elsewhere, there are companies that will flat out tell their clients not to turn the work in as their own. these companies also do not transfer copyright. i've worked personally with enough students to see that these essay services can provide very beneficial guides to writing, particularly for ESL students who are still learning the language.
do some of the students that i've worked with turn in my work as their own? probably. i know of one case where that happened and i stopped working with that client. there are so many people seeking help that a qualified writer has no trouble picking and choosing clients. the risk of cheating with essays doesn't justify completely ceasing the activity anymore than it would justify ending tutoring or editing services.
but there also has to be a point where we accept that some will misuse the products or services being offered and, instead of stopping the service, look for ways to stop the abuse. i wouldn't stop the publication of textbooks, journal articles or workbooks and supplemental educational texts just b/c someone has the same ability to plagiarize those works as they do an essay. i wouldn't stop knife manufacturers from making knives just b/c someone can use them to stab a neighbor instead of cutting a steak either.
Quoting: julie24963 Tell that to all the criminal I have successfully prosecuted and put behind bars. The real criminals are those committing murders, rapists and child abusers. Low on the agenda is those that rip off lazy students who cannot be bothered to get off their bums and write their own essays.
i really hope you don't mean this in the way that it reads. one person determining who is worthy of legal protection and who isn't is a really disturbing suggestion.
and this statement contradicts your previous statement. you don't judge Joey for directly engaging in unethical and fraudulent business practices but you do clearly judge the nameless students you assume are using Joey's work as homework. how exactly do you distinguish between the two groups? your position CAN'T be that poor(er) people are held to lower moral standards than those with a disposable income.
Quoting: joey009 Is it my fault that jobs that I could "honestly" acquire in the Philippines pays squat? Is it my fault that our ****ing politicians mooch off our taxes so much that there is virtually nothing left for us to live on?
honestly? yah it is. if you don't like your government, you have two options. 1. work to change the system. 2. leave and live elsewhere. don't use your government's poor behavior to justify yours.
look, i didn't go searching for this fight, you did. if you honestly believe that writing essays to make extra money is your best option (and maybe it is, i don't know you or your circumstances) then work for a legitimate company, not one who, as you put it, is Quoting: joey009 pretending to hire whites only.
you can make 2-3x more money working for a legit company than you will working for these crooks and you won't be helping them to spread their discriminatory and fraudulent message.
Quoting: joey009 *yipes.. after reading about how fat and ugly people make you out to be, I've decided to retract my second statement. I won't **** you if you were the last she-whale on the planet!*
what a disturbing example of blatant sexism. julie will you be correcting this poster for rudeness too?
|
|
| jessi |
|
Sep 18, 07, 11:16AM
| #99 |
Joined: Sep 18, 07
Posts: 1
|
Quoting: joey009 Sa mga pinoy na nakakabasa nito: palagay ko, kasing taba nitong balyenang to si malou fernandez. Magkasing fanet kasi sila ng ugali.
d ko alam itsura ni m. fernandez. pero sang-ayon ako na pareho sila ng ugali ^^
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 01:45PM
| #100 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
Quoting: joey009 You're just pissed because we get the action that you're supposed to be getting.
LOL, I don't work for peanuts, crook. Unlike you, I don't sell my soul to the devil by working for criminal outfits like AccessEssays.com and EssayWriters.net, cheating people every day and justifying it by moaning about my own, personal hardships. The reason that you are so outwardly hateful towards honest writers and fraud-fighters is because you hate yourself for being such a dirty crook, but you don't have enough moral fiber to admit your devious practices or cease them altogether.
I earned an advanced degree from a legitimate university in the United States. I am able to spend so much time uncovering fraud by crooks--including your employers--and monitor this message board every day because I have been highly successful as a legitimate, professional writer.
Moderator, please remove the non-English posts. If you read joey009's latest posts, I think it's pretty clear that those should be his last.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 01:52PM
| #101 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
For those of you who justify your criminal careers by claiming that students "deserve" to be cheated because they "all plagiarize," I suggest that you read this:
essayfraud.org/plagiarism.html
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 02:43PM
| #102 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: Lavinia really hope you don't mean this in the way that it reads. one person determining who is worthy of legal protection and who isn't is a really disturbing suggestion. and this statement contradicts your previous statement. you don't judge Joey for directly engaging in unethical and fraudulent business practices but you do clearly judge the nameless students you assume are using Joey's work as homework. how exactly do you distinguish between the two groups? your position CAN'T be that poor(er) people are held to lower moral standards than those with a disposable income.
I was not for one moment suggesting that one person should determine who is more worthy of legal protection than another, however in such matters regarding the selling of substandard essays this area rightly belongs within in the realms of civil law in the UK. The courts would not regard this as a criminal action regardless of the lies told by the companies as to their country of origin or the nationality of their writers. In English law the courts would expect those that have paid for the essays and are not happy with the services provided to pursue a claim in the small claims court under civil procedure.
If the companies where taking money from the customers and then not providing anything in return then the courts would view this as criminal and would prosecute them for fraud. It is not viewed by the English courts as fraud if a company lies about its country of origin etc.
As for your comment about me not judging Joey that is not the point I was making as I clearly stated in one of my previous posts is that is for Joey to reconcile his conscience with. Joey clearly accepts that the company he works for pretends that he is a native English speaking writer and is obviously not bothered about this lack of integrity so long as it provides him with an income. The point I was trying to make is that the students paying for the essays are surely not so naive to believe that they are going to get a good quality essay if they are paying budget prices. Following from this they must the question the kind of writer that would be prepared to write such a lengthy essay for such a ridiculous price which should then lead to the conclusion that the writer is probably a native of a country were the wages are particularly low such a third world countries. This should then make them question the content of the essay they will receive given that the writer is more than likely not going to be a native speaker of English.
Quoting: joey009 yipes.. after reading about how fat and ugly people make you out to be, I've decided to retract my second statement. I won't **** you if you were the last she-whale on the planet!*
Joey any respect you might have had from me has been extinguished by the fact that you have chosen to resort to the kind of behaviour I condemned from WB. Your use of asterix to mask expletives also deserves condemnation as there is absolutely no reason for you to behave in this manner. You have demeaned yourself to the level of WB in your rudeness and are therefore no better than she is with regard to manners.
Quoting: WritersBeware For those of you who justify your criminal careers by claiming that students "deserve" to be cheated because they "all plagiarize," I suggest that you read this:
It has not been my suggestion that cheating students deserve to receive plagairised essays. My opinion is that they should not be allowed to use the essays as their own work. Whilst I accept the comments made by Lavinia that there are some companies out there that inform the students that they are not to use the essays as their own, they have absolutely no way of being able to stop this from happening totally. It is blatantly obvious when comparing a students coursework with a submitted essay that in some cases these essays are not their own work as the essay contains language or style not found in their class work. I welcome the fact that many universities are now challenging such discrepancies and failing students when it becomes apparent that the essay they have submitted has been from an essay writing site. I hope that the continued plan of action by the universities will eventually discourage all students from submitting someone else's work as their own.
WB I notice you did not answer my post as to how you reconcile your conscience when you must be aware that some of the essays you write will be submitted by your customers as their own work. Do you think this is ethical and morally right or should they be condemned in the same way that you are condemning those companies that lie to the students? If you condone their activity than you are no better than Joey and co who write for fraudulent companies as you put it and if you don't condone it then you are a hypocrite for continuing to write essays knowing they will be submitted as someone else's work. So which are you?
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 02:56PM
| #103 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
Quoting: julie24963 WB I notice you did not answer my post as to how you reconcile your conscience when you must be aware that some of the essays you write will be submitted by your customers as their own work.
I have stated NUMEROUS times that I do not write for essay companies. You may want to READ my previous posts that communicate such, the last of which was only ONE HOUR ago:
http://www.essayscam.org/Forum/9_305_4.html#msg4170
I uncover fraud to protect consumers and warn legitimate, freelance writers.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 03:33PM
| #104 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
You did not say specifically in your last post that you do not write yourself, you said, and I quote, ' I don't work for peanuts' that does not necessarily mean that you don't write!
Even if you are not a writer you do condone those you class as legitimate freelance writers. How do you honestly feel about them selling their essays to others to be submitted as someone else's work? Do you think it is acceptable for students to cheat in this way and do you think that freelance writers should encourage such cheating by providing these services?
I personally think the whole practice should cease entirely and that students seeking help with essays should approach their lecturers or that sites could be set up where students submit their own work for proofreading and where the students could have access to advisors that could suggest ways in which the work could be improved. That way the essay would be the work of the student and any amendments suggested by the advisor could be incorporated or not as the student sees fit.
What is your stance on this issue? Do you not think that students using freelance writers work should be condemned for this behaviour and fail their course if they are caught submitting someone else's work as their own?
|
|
| essayer |
|
Sep 18, 07, 03:59PM
| #105 |
Joined: Dec 28, 06
Posts: 127
|
joey009, i must agree that your last post was highly uncalled for and unethical. it was both reprehensibly chauvinistic and discriminatory of the plumpier members of humankind.
also, you and everyone else should not make non-English posts, obviously out of respect for those who don't speak nor read your tongue.
however, let me express--for whatever it's worth--my sincere sympathies for the suffering of the Philippines due to the corruption and the iniquity of its government.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 04:13PM
| #106 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
<div class="quoting">Quoting: julie24963 You did not say specifically in your last post that you do not write yourself, you said, and I quote, ' I don't work for peanuts' that does not necessarily mean that you don't write!</div>
Look, I'm not going to let you get away with your continued nonsense. You know damn well that you did not include the ENTIRE quote. Here's the part that you PURPOSELY did not include:
"I don't sell my soul to the devil by working for criminal outfits like AccessEssays.com and EssayWriters.net, cheating people every day and justifying it by moaning about my own, personal hardships."
I have also stated, in numerous other posts before your arrival, that I do NOT work for essay sites. Do proper research before posting blatantly incorrect information! Your posts are irresponsible and void of facts on all major points that you attempt to make!
Now, since you did not bother to read the link that I posted, I will now quote the text from the page:
"The First Amendment guarantees all American citizens the right to free speech. We are free to think, speak, read, or write whatever we wish. That is what makes America the greatest country on Earth. However, there is a vast difference between conducting legitimate research and engaging in literary theft. EssayFraud.org condemns academic fraud and plagiarism in any form.
Consumers have the right to expect that the example, custom research and unique ideas for which they pay will not be plagiarized from a third party. If a consumer contracts a freelance writer to research and compose an example document from which the consumer intends to glean unique insights/viewpoints on a given topic, the consumer must properly cite that writer and/or that writer's employing Web site when writing his/her own paper. Now, if the freelance writer deceives the paying consumer by plagiarizing from a third party, the consumer's bibliographical reference to that freelance writer and/or that writer's employing Web site will not be accurate! Therefore, it is the completely honest consumer who can be accused of academic fraud because his/her cited sources are not genuine.
We believe that legitimate research services have every right to compose sample research documents on all topics for consumers to reference and properly cite as secondary sources of information. There is nothing wrong with a consumer purchasing a sample research document, as long as that consumer properly cites quoted text within parentheses throughout the consumer's own, original, personally-written paper, and lists the quoted sources in a bibliography. Consumers must also properly acknowledge any paraphrased material or unique ideas, as well as consulted (albeit not directly quoted) sources in a 'Works Consulted' list that follows the bibliography."
essayfraud.org/plagiarism.html
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 05:35PM
| #107 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: WritersBeware We believe that legitimate research services have every right to compose sample research documents on all topics for consumers to reference and properly cite as secondary sources of information. There is nothing wrong with a consumer purchasing a sample research document, as long as that consumer properly cites quoted text within parentheses throughout the consumer's own, original, personally-written paper, and lists the quoted sources in a bibliography. Consumers must also properly acknowledge any paraphrased material or unique ideas, as well as consulted (albeit not directly quoted) sources in a "Works Consulted" list that follows the bibliography."
This may well be your belief, however, although students are supposed to quote their sources in their essays, even if they are using essay writing websites, there are always going to be those that do not bother to alter any of the essays sent to them, nor properly quote the writers for their work. You are living in a bubble if you seriously think that all students use the essay writing services for referencing only.
Having recently marked a series of essays submitted by students 3 of the marked essays were clearly not the work of the student and there was no mention that the students had used such essay writing sites as secondary sources. All three failed their final exam and have been expelled from the university. This is a fact not idle speculation!
Quoting: WritersBeware I don't sell my soul to the devil by working for criminal outfits like AccessEssays.com and EssayWriters.net, cheating people every day and justifying it by moaning about my own, personal hardships
This also does not prove that you are not a writer, just that you are not a writer for the 2 sites mentioned in your post.
I note that you still fail to answer the question on your stance on 'cheating' students. You try to flout this question by stating that the American education system allows students to use essay writing sites so long as they quote them in their text. What about those students that make no alteration whatsoever to the essay they have paid for and then submit it as their own work? Please do not pretend that this does not happen as I have just proven above that this indeed does happen.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 18, 07, 05:41PM
| #108 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
Again, julie24963, your arguments make no sense, whatsoever.
Quoting: julie24963 What about those students that make no alteration whatsoever to the essay they have paid for and then submit it as their own work?
"Guns don't kill people; people kill people."
End of story.
Are you actually suggesting that companies do not have the right to write example research documents for reference because of the possible misuse by a small percentage of clients? Are you out of your mind?
Julie24963, while you're at it, why don't you lobby Congress for a ban on all vehicles, as well? After all, people have used vehicles as weapons to kill thousands of other people throughout the years.
Campaign ad:
"CHRYSLER, FORD, TOYOTA, CHEVROLET--SHAME ON YOU!"
Paid for by Idiots for Julie24963, 2008
|
|
| Lavinia |
|
Edited by: Lavinia Sep 18, 07, 06:50PM
| #109 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 547
|
Quoting: julie24963 Having recently marked a series of essays submitted by students 3 of the marked essays were clearly not the work of the student and there was no mention that the students had used such essay writing sites as secondary sources. All three failed their final exam and have been expelled from the university. This is a fact not idle speculation!
this is an interesting bit of information that you raise. however, i don't think that it supports your argument.
was it proved that these students used essay services to produce these essays? if they were, then your example demonstrates that the academic community is capable of catching cheaters. if they weren't, then it demonstrates that some students will get others to write their papers without resorting to professional writing services and also that the academic community is capable of catching cheaters. in either case, your example fails to demonstrate how or why removing the essay writing service industry would help stop students from cheating (and that the academic community is capable of catching cheaters). no further industrial action is needed.
it's not that i don't doubt that some students use these services to cheat. however, i am quite confident that for every empirical example of a cheater using an essay service, i can point to a student whose knowledge and performance has been honestly and ethically helped by the same service. you just aren't going to win that every student who uses one of these services is going to cheat with the finished product and you also can't win that ending the industry will stop all future cheating.
ultimately, i think your solution of removing the industry is short-sighted. in fact, i would argue that the increased publicity over the threat of cheating that has been generated as a result of this industry's success is a good thing that has helped improve university standards.
essay writing services have helped to increase the performance bar for academic discipline. university professors are now challenged to create assignments that are unique rather than cookie-cutter. this means requiring particular books, excluding generic topics and generally tailoring assignments to be different and challenging. responsible university professors can no longer allow students to complete a class based upon essays alone. so this increases the use of non-essay forms of testing, including written tests, oral tests and class presentations. this also presses university professors to better get to know their students, instead of treating them like a number at a distance. only by interacting with a student can a professor really get a good idea of cheating. all good things.
this industry didn't start cheating. however, it did bring academic performance under greater public and private scrutiny, resulting in universities adjusting their requirements to make cheating more difficult. just like WB's often aggressive posts, this industry does more good than bad.
|
|
| Lavinia |
|
Edited by: Lavinia Sep 18, 07, 07:42PM
| #110 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 547
|
a little evidence to support my previous post.
first, despite the fervor of concern over essay mills, they represent only a miniscule amount of actual academic cheating taking place.
The source is George Dunbar, University of Warwick, "The management of academic dishonesty: a survey of practice in UK psychology departments" 2005.
"Of the 23 departments responding to this item, 19 listed copying from published
sources such as textbooks and articles as the most common or second most common form of cheating detected, estimating on average that this accounted for 42% of cases. Copying from the internet was also relatively frequent, with 9 departments listing this as the most common type, at an average 21% of cases. However, only two departments recorded any incidents of students purchasing essays, and this was even rarer than cheating during invigilated examinations, which averaged under 2% of cases. This result for buying essays is in line with
the Freshminds (2004) survey of UK students, which found less than 1% of the sample admitted to buying from an "essay mill". Fabrication of project data was also relatively unusual at 6% of cases. The other relatively common form of cheating was unfair co-operation between students. Around 29% of cases were accounted for by copying another student's work or other forms of illicit collusion"
Polly Curtis, Guardian Unlimited 2004.
http://education.guardian.co.uk/students/work/story/0,,1250786,00.html
"Of those polled by FreshMinds research consultancy, 75% said they had never cheated in this way, while 9% said they had once. Some 16% said they had cheated more often - indicating that most offenders relied on cheating regularly.
However, very few were found to be employing online essay services, with most opting to copy segments from the internet into their own papers, or relying too heavily on past essay examples. "
Patrick Scanlon, from College Teaching, 2003 further notes that the claim that plagiarism has increased as a result of the internet is not correct:
"Only recently has online plagiarism been studied systematically, with results suggesting that anxiety over Internet-facilitated textual theft by college students may be fueled by misperceptions. In a survey of 698 students on nine campuses, Scanlon and Neumann (2002) found that students who went online to cut and paste text without citation constituted 24.5 percent of the sample, a level of Internet plagiarism similar to the numbers reported by McCabe and Trevino (1996) for "conventional" plagiarism. Only 2.3 percent of students in Scanlon and Neumann's study reported purchasing papers from online term-paper mills "often" or "very frequently," and 6 percent admitted to buying papers "sometimes." Another recent multicampus study revealed even lower numbers. Citing data from a survey of 2,200 college students on twenty-one campuses, McCabe found that 10 percent reported copying "a few sentences from a Web site without footnoting them," and 5 percent admitted to turning in a paper "obtained in large part from a term-paper mill or Web site" (2001, 41).
second, the existence of the industry makes cheating more difficult.
findings of a more recent study at the University of Illinois, Champagne-Urbana
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020501073710.htm
"Ironically, paper mills may in the long run make plagiarism more difficult, the professors said. For one thing, paper mills have "created a niche for plagiarism-detection software." Also, what is available online is "of middling quality at best; students may reach the same conclusion." And, with the spread of printed matter now being scanned and put online, plagiarism-detection programs are increasingly capable of catching passages taken from printed sources"
and this is further supported by the proliferation of new university-sponsored websites that discuss plagiarism and means to combat its prevalence. if you wanted to see one, i'd suggest the University of Iowa, which if i remember correctly also has an excellent graduate level creative writing program.
|
|
| joey009 |
|
Edited by: joey009 Sep 18, 07, 09:54PM
| #111 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
Quoting: essayer joey009, i must agree that your last post was highly uncalled for and unethical. it was both reprehensibly chauvinistic and discriminatory of the plumpier members of humankind.
The ugly she-whale deserved it. She had it coming to her, I just served it up her ***. She says that she's a "legitimate" author who's so rich that she can spend all her time "monitoring" these boards to stop fraud. She thinks it's enough that she tells everyone this for no one to suspect that she's just another detractor. How prepostrous is that? Being a professional detractor ain't so bad *****, you shouldn't be afraid to tell us what you do for a living. What's bad is that you generalize the inefficiency of an entire race at academic writing. That's where we start *****-slapping you back.
Quoting: jessi d ko alam itsura ni m. fernandez. pero sang-ayon ako na pareho sila ng ugali ^^
nakuha mo tsong!
Quoting: pious Maybe it's the fault of your president who, we heard, cheated her way to the presidency. How can a morally depraved leader who lacks public approval and confidence properly serve her citizens? A counterfeit president is there only for the power and never the service.
gago. pinoy ka din ulol. kita-kits na lang sa iris!
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Sep 18, 07, 10:07PM
| #112 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
First of all, you scandalous piece of trash, I'm not fat. I run almost 2 miles every morning, except on Sundays. I also lift weights and do aerobics 4 days per week.
Don't let facts get in the way of your crime-based imagination, though.
By the way, you pinheaded dolt, I'd love for you to quote for me exactly where I have EVER belittled a "race."
Hurry up, you criminal moron!
|
|
| joey009 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 11:11PM
| #113 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
Quoting: WritersBeware First of all, you scandalous piece of trash, I'm not fat. I run almost 2 miles every morning, except on Sundays. I also lift weights and do aerobics 4 days per week
YEah Right! Like how you're a successful published writer and all that crap. Why don't you take the extra mile and claim that you landed on the moon yesterday while you're at it! Among the many insecure, pathetic pieces of **** that I've had the misfortune of meeting online, you are definitely the most insecure (you're not the most pathetic though, but you're close!). You are in fact so insecure, that you even challenge people to proofread your posts just to prove that you don't commit grammar mistakes, and when they DO find mistakes (julie did), you just laugh it off as thought they weren't there. Don't you have any other achievements aside from being a second-rate human grammar checker? How many grammar mistakes can you count in this post, you fat ugly *****?!?
Quoting: WritersBeware By the way, you pinheaded dolt, I'd love for you to quote for me exactly where I have EVER belittled a "race."
On top of being an ugly slab of blubber, you're also a ****ing blind ***** of a fugly she-whale! I don't need to quote because it's all over this thread.
|
|
| joey009 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 11:23PM
| #114 |
Joined: Sep 17, 07
Threads: 1
Posts: 35
|
To Lavinia:
You say that if I work for one of the companies you take for as "legitimate", I'll make 2-3 times more than what I make now? Would they hire someone like me or do I have to kill a white man and wear his white face before I can be considered for a job?
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Sep 18, 07, 11:30PM
| #115 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
LOL, your pathetic posts don't even warrant responses from anyone.
Everyone, please ignore this racist simpleton. He obviously has many psychological "issues" and incredibly low self-esteem.
|
|
| julie24963 |
|
Sep 18, 07, 11:47PM
| #116 |
Joined: May 3, 07
Threads: 3
Posts: 140
|
Quoting: Lavinia was it proved that these students used essay services to produce these essays? if they were, then your example demonstrates that the academic community is capable of catching cheaters. if they weren't, then it demonstrates that some students will get others to write their papers without resorting to professional writing services and also that the academic community is capable of catching cheaters. in either case, your example fails to demonstrate how or why removing the essay writing service industry would help stop students from cheating (and that the academic community is capable of catching cheaters). no further industrial action is needed.
Yes Lavinia it was proved that they had used essay writing sites and on more than one ocassion too.
You might like to read the below article
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1008/1008291_cheating_student s_exposed.html
Manchester University is one of the universities that I mark for and you will note that in the article it states
'Nine of the students were later cleared but four were expelled because their cheating was so serious. The other cases were dealt with a range of penalties including a downgrading of marks.'
I know the article does not specifically mention that they were using essay writing sites but I know the 4 that were expelled and know this to be the reason as I was instrumental in their dismissal.
You might also like to read the following article were a student admits to using such essays as her own
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/3265143.stm
I will post more later as I am about to leave for work. Busy day in the courts today so need to get an early start on preparing my submission to the judge.
|
|
| Lavinia |
|
Edited by: Lavinia Sep 19, 07, 12:34AM
| #117 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 547
|
interesting articles julie, but they prove my point, not yours.
i'm fully willing to concede that about 1-2% of the students who cheat do so using custom online essays. that's what my academic research journals claim and that's exactly in line with your own articles - the first article says that "nearly 500 students tried to trick their lecturers last year, mainly by copying work from the Internet and passing it off as their own coursework." i'll believe you when you say that the four were expelled because of purchasing essays from agencies, that's the 1% i concede. of course, the line that i quoted from your article states that the majority of students cheating were doing so by copying work from the 'net and NOT from buying essays.
the second article you link makes the same point. one student admitted to buying essays... that does not a majority make. most students cheat by cutting and pasting off the internet. well... that's a great argument for banning the internet, isn't it?
and no offense, but i don't consider the BBC the end all be all of statistics. i quoted academic studies (2 conducted in the U.K.) to get my data. i don't think you really want to make the argument that the BBC > controlled, academic studies.
give me one piece of academic evidence that contradicts my 1-2% figures. i'll set my bar low - give me one piece of reasonably recent (within the last three years) academic evidence that empirically demonstrates 20% or more of all cheating is facilitated by online essay sales and i'll be impressed. or, give me one piece of evidence that says banning the essay writing industry will stop students from cheating. that's your claim and you have to provide something to back that up beyond anecdotal experience.
otherwise, look at what you're arguing: 1-2% cheating and you ban an industry? how is that reasonable? if that's your margin, then we have to ban all professional journals, the internet and the publishing industries too b/c there are a heck of a lot more students cheating by plagiarizing them.
and let's not forget, you conceded my point that the existence of essay mills actually makes cheating harder. that was the conclusion of a professor at the university of illinois (my home state /cheer) after studying this. the threat of mass cheating through essay mill use, the very fear that you seem to have, is what is creating academic reform to make the education system stronger and requirements more rigorous. even your own article concedes that the way to stop cheating is by improving the academy:
But Prof Bassnett says universities have to take tougher measures, including "sending down" - expelling people.
"Universities have to be more rigorous in their monitoring.
"Students need to be motivated through quality of teaching resources and coherent monitoring and penalty of expulsion.
"When a student is sent down, the rest take notice," she said.
that is not an endorsement to ban an industry. the industry existing keeps the academy conscious of the threat of plagiarism, something that they've frankly been lax on in the past.
and frankly, more reform needs to happen. my husband and i live in california. my husband is a professor and by state law the WORST that he can give a student that he catches cheating is a zero on the assignment. he can't fail them in the course or get them kicked out of school. that is ridiculous. i'm hoping that california, along with a lot of other places, wake up and start holding students up to higher standards, period. if we take away the perceived threat of essay mills by banning the industry, all that will accomplish is academic complacency while students who want to cheat figure out how to cheat. that's going backwards, not forward.
and my evidence post-dates and assumes yours. Prof. Bassnett, your big academic advocate, is from Warwick University, which is the home of my first cited piece of evidence, which points out that inflamatory rhetoric spouted out by folks like Prof. Bassnett about the horrors of online cheating overstates the problem and does not accurately reflect the statistical reality of the cheating world.
so, good job on catching the 4 students... but again, that proves my point. that schools are catching the cheaters means there is no reason to condemn an industry that actually helps other students. kick out the cheaters, i have no problem with that, and i'm 99.6% certain that even if you do that I will have plenty of legitimate customers. the perception that essay mills are these ultra tools for the throngs of cheaters isn't supported by the facts.
back in college, i got to debate against the UK parliamentary team and i got my butt kicked, but i'm protected from your charming British accent by the wonders of the internet. so, you need to do a little bit better with proving your point.
|
|
| pious |
|
Sep 19, 07, 01:04AM
| #118 |
Joined: Mar 10, 07
Posts: 73
|
Quoting: joey009 gago. pinoy ka din ulol. kita-kits na lang sa iris
I just translated your post directed at me using Filipino software and you are calling me 'stupid' and 'mad'?! You are a dog-sh_t of a he-whale shark with the fetish for male canals! Your low kind should be BANNED from this forum. Ugh, you sc_um d_ick represents the poo_p of your race.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Sep 19, 07, 01:11AM
| #119 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
Pious, joey009 is sub-human. Don't give it the satisfaction of an acknowledgment.
|
|
| WritersBeware |
|
Edited by: WritersBeware Sep 19, 07, 01:13AM
| #120 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 144
Posts: 8,395
|
I just thought I'd remind everyone of the FACTS about AccessEssays.com's fraudulent enterprise that I reported in the original post of this thread:
http://www.essayscam.org/Forum/9_305_0.html#msg3947
The apologist and the crooks took this thread off-topic.
|
|
