| WritersBeware |
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Jan 9, 08, 04:14PM
| #1 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,678
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Following is the actual conversation that I had with Writers.ph earlier today.
"Walker" = Me
Daniel = EssayWriters.net rep
Susan = EssayWriters.net rep
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Walker:
I am interested in working for your company, but I can't find any proof that you have been in business since 1997.
Call accepted by operator Daniel. Currently in room: Daniel, Walker.
Daniel:
Which proof are you looking for?
Walker:
I've looked in your Whois records for writers.ph. Your site is new.
Operator Daniel has invited Susan to join this conversation. Currently in room: Susan, Daniel, Walker.
Susan:
hi
Walker:
Hello
Walker:
I already asked a question of Daniel.
Walker:
Are you not going to answer?
Susan:
sorry, i do not understand what you are talking about
Walker:
I am interested in working for your company, but I can't find any proof that you have been in business since 1997.
Walker:
I've looked in your Whois records for writers.ph. Your site is new.
Walker:
I'd like to see proof that your company is 11 years old before I apply.
Susan:
ho are writers.ph?
Susan:
who
Walker:
Are you kidding? Writers.ph is your own site, on which I just clicked the "Live Chat" image.
Susan:
you are talking to essaywriters.net
Walker:
OK, so you own Writers.ph.
Susan:
no
Susan:
we do not
Walker:
So writers.ph is somehow using the exact same Live Chat service as you, as well as your personal chat account?
Susan:
i do not know what you are talking about
Walker:
I clicked on the LIVE CHAT image on http://www.writers.ph , and you answered.
Susan:
i do not understand what happened
Walker:
Writers.ph hacked you, stole essaywriters.net's unique chat username/password, and then used your chat system on THEIR site? That's a lot of trouble to go through just to bring business to another site.
Susan:
i can not help you with this problem, as i do not understand what you are talking about
Walker:
OK, one more time: I clicked on the LIVE CHAT image on http://www.writers.ph , and you answered. What is there to not understand?
Susan:
we are essaywriters.net
Walker:
Either you own writers.ph, or writers.ph hacked you system just to be able to bring you business.
Walker:
I just want to know which it is.
Susan:
we are essaywriters.net
Walker:
Either you own writers.ph, or writers.ph hacked your system just to be able to bring you business. Which is it?
Susan:
i have informed IT
Walker:
I would still like proof that your company has exited since 1997.
Walker:
existed
Walker:
Providing the address of your office in the Philippines would be a start.
Susan:
we are USA based
Susan:
we can continue our conversation if you are interested in working for essaywriters.net
Walker:
Yes.
Walker:
Your essay site, www.superiorpapers.com , also states that you have been in business since 1997. I would like to see some verifiable proof of that. There are too many fraudulent writing site these days.
Susan:
we can continue our conversation if you are interested in working for essaywriters.net
Susan:
i know nothing about the sites you are talking about
Walker:
I am interested in working for essaywriters.net. Any legitimate company would answer this question as part of the application process.
Susan:
you can find our application form on the web.site
Walker:
Why can't you show my proof that you have been in business since 1997? You state that on your own sites.
Susan:
which siteS are you talking about
Walker:
superiorpapers.com
Susan:
we can no longer continue your talk.It you are interested in working for other on-line companies, please contact them
Susan has left the conversation. Currently in room: Daniel, Walker.
Walker:
Thank you for the confirmations, CROOKS!
Daniel has left the conversation. Currently in room: Walker.
------------------------------
Anyone who continues working for EssayWriters.net and/or Writers.ph deserves to be vigorously pummeled with a rotting baboon carcass.
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| WritersBeware |
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Edited by: WritersBeware Jan 9, 08, 04:29PM
| #2 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,678
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By the way, following is the actual "chat code" that currently appears in the html of the Writers.ph home page. As one can see, the code points to "writers.ph," not to "essaywriters.net." Regardless of this overwhelming proof, the scumbags at EssayWriters.net STILL lie through their teeth at every turn, about their company's age, true location in Ukraine, and affiliations.
Yuri . . . you're not fooling anyone!
<!-- BEGIN ProvideSupport.com Custom Images Chat Button Code -->
<div id="ciX7n3" style="z-index:100;position:absolute"></div><div id="scX7n3" style="display:inline"></div><div id="sdX7n3" style="display:none"></div><script type="text/javascript">var seX7n3=document.createElement("script");seX7n3.type="text/javascript";var seX7n3s=(location.protocol.indexOf("https")==0?"https://secure.providesuppo rt.com/image":"http://image.providesupport.com")+"/js/2pssup/safe-standard. js?ps_h=X7n3\u0026ps_t="+new Date().getTime()+"\u0026online-image=http%3A//www.writers.ph/images/livecha t.gif\u0026offline-image=http%3A//www.writers.ph/images/livechat.gif";setTi meout("seX7n3.src=seX7n3s;document.getElementById('sdX7n3').appendChild(seX 7n3)",1)</script>
<!-- END ProvideSupport.com Custom Images Chat Button Code -->
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| WritersBeware |
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Jan 9, 08, 04:35PM
| #3 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,678
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Here is a Whois record (from November 9, 2006) of one of EssayWriters.net's properties, which, in turn, claims to fall under the "Universal Research LLC" corporate umbrella:
---------------------------
Domain name: essayontime.com
Registrant Contact:
Universal Research LLC
Yuri Mizyuk (yra_m2002@yahoo.com)
+1.7039944509
Fax: +1.8778899685
11654 Plaza America Dr
Reston, S 20191
US
Administrative Contact:
Universal Research LLC
Yuri Mizyuk (yra_m2002@yahoo.com)
+1.7039944509
Fax: +1.8778899685
11654 Plaza America Dr
Reston, S 20191
US
Technical Contact:
Universal Research LLC
Yuri Mizyuk (yra_m2002@yahoo.com)
+1.7039944509
Fax: +1.8778899685
11654 Plaza America Dr
Reston, S 20191
US
Status: Locked
Name Servers:
ns1.GENUINEPAPERS.COM
ns2.GENUINEPAPERS.COM
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| scammedwriter |
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Edited by: scammedwriter Jan 20, 08, 01:42PM
| #4 |
Joined: Jan 19, 08
Threads: 2
Posts: 6
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When I asked a support from essaywriters.net, she said that they are connected with writers.ph. She even gave me the physical address of writers.ph. Oh well, a bunch of scammers. How can I view the site's Whois? :)
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| workfromhomemom |
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Jan 29, 08, 08:19AM
| #5 |
Joined: Mar 22, 07
Posts: 40
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great work WritersBeware! i had a feeling they were filipinos... i kept telling my friend -- who by the way still writes for EW.net -- that the people behind that horrible company could be filipinos! every time i read their posts, there's something in the content, style and tone of the text that makes me think they aren't ukranian but filipino. your expose here confirms that hunch! could it be that ukranians have partnered with filipinos? no matter coz this makes me feel bad all the more. now, some negative labels instead of more positive ones would be attached to filipinos...
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| workfromhomemom |
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Jan 30, 08, 07:43AM
| #6 |
Joined: Mar 22, 07
Posts: 40
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take a look at this note for instance - posted at the EW.net message board last october:
October 21, 2007
Dear Writers!
As you have noticed that we have a very convenient way to ask client for additional compensation (per page)/additional pages or deadline extension.
Writers also have the option to offer clients revision themselves as well as ask for additional files upload.
There are special automated templates located in the bottom of every Order Details page. Please kindly use them ONLY to submit your requests to clients. This will ease the work of Support greatly and will as well facilitate the order preparing process from writers' side.
Thank you for cooperation
We hope for your kind consideration on this matter
Warm regards,
Writers' Support Team
notice the tone and style of the text? here's another example:
January 18, 2008
Dear Writers,
We are sorry to inform that PayPal payment is being delayed due to the fact that we have still not finished PayPal authorization with the new bank.
The accountant is negotiating with the bank representatives to resolve the issue as soon as possible.
We are kindly asking you to wait.
Thank you for your patience and understanding.
Regards,
Essaywriters.net Team
i've seen a lot of this kind of writing and told my friend about it. she also suspects that the EW.net team may be composed of filipinos -- (working for ukranians (?) like olga mizyuk, who sends out writers' payments) after reading and re-reading EW.net posts.
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| tarangita |
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Jan 30, 08, 01:07PM
| #7 |
Joined: Jan 7, 08
Threads: 4
Posts: 72
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Just stalling payment. All do it. When it comes to payment time, dear Mr. Peter Richardson of 1stclassprojects.com and its reverse, says there had been some complaints about your work and till he goes through it (he is very busy now), he cannot pay and by the time he goes through it, the payment date would have passed and (according to our policy) he has to wait for another deadline. Poor dear! Has a lot of problems ( in P1C, as we call it!). He really wants to pay; but a puppet of circumstances.
Please do not trust any of these rogues.
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| pious |
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Jan 30, 08, 09:46PM
| #8 |
Joined: Mar 10, 07
Posts: 73
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Isn't it that essaywriters.net is owned by Ukrainians? You mean to say, writersbeware, that essaywriters' Ukrainian owners are collaborating with some Filipinos in writers.ph?
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| pepi |
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Jan 31, 08, 09:17AM
| #9 |
Joined: Jan 5, 08
Posts: 21
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All I know is that writers.ph is an extension of essaywriiters. I don't think that the company is owned by a Filipino. They have an office in Makati City, Philippines. What they do is follow-up the work with the writers. They sometimes call to check if I can submit the project on time. I don't think they are part of whatever is going on.
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| blackpropaganda123 |
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Feb 4, 08, 04:59AM
| #10 |
Joined: Feb 4, 08
Posts: 1
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well, even though that is the case, i am still writing for writers.ph, i did not experienced any problem. sometimes and once in a while, payments are kind'a delayed, but eventually it will be sent out without problem. maybe those who are complaining about the websites are those writers that truly not writers and the only thing that they know is to point fingers on those who have fault, and not looking by theirselves.poor them
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| pious |
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Feb 4, 08, 09:47AM
| #11 |
Joined: Mar 10, 07
Posts: 73
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Quoting: pious All I know is that writers.ph is an extension of essaywriiters. I don't think that the company is owned by a Filipino. They have an office in Makati City, Philippines. What they do is follow-up the work with the writers. They sometimes call to check if I can submit the project on time. I don't think they are part of whatever is going on.
Do you mean the Filipino staff of writers.ph only handle the call center part?
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| sunburst_cookies |
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Feb 11, 08, 03:48AM
| #12 |
Joined: Feb 11, 08
Posts: 15
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I just started working for writers.ph and do not wish to continue working for them. Had trouble dealing with client and support both. And yes, it takes too long to get your wage. As in any outsourcing company the sweatshop principle underlies employee relations.
My question is how do we as writers protect ourselves from scammers like this? In cases where the employer does not pay us, what should be the next step?
Glad I stumbled on this site
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| pepi |
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Feb 13, 08, 10:40AM
| #13 |
Joined: Jan 5, 08
Posts: 21
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@ pious: yes, i think the people at writers.ph- just handles the complaints, deadlines, etc. i don't think thay they scam people.
btw, my payments from writers.ph/ essaywriters were all delivered. there were delays and penalties. i still write for them from time to time because i need the money. but now i am careful in taking some projects. the problem lies with the client/s; they would sometimes give a negative feedback that would cause delays in payments and penalties. there were occassions that i was able to reason out with the support to cut down the penalties imposed.
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| sunburst_cookies |
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Feb 14, 08, 01:57AM
| #14 |
Joined: Feb 11, 08
Posts: 15
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Hi pepi,
Good for you. I just got word that i won't get money tomorrow. Imagine, the day before the payout writers.ph sends a system message that the bank requires an amount of $400 and up in order to send our salary. Why didn't support tell me early on, as I've been constantly badgering them about my pay - asking if my bank details are compete, if there are problems, etc? I kept telling them I didn't want anymore delays. Support assured me i will get the money on time and that i should be patient.
Now this?!
The only reason they provide is because it's bank policy and they say the delay is temporary until they resolve the problem with the bank. Is this a sign they're not gonna pay up at all?
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| pious |
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Edited by: pious Feb 15, 08, 01:40AM
| #15 |
Joined: Mar 10, 07
Posts: 73
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Quoting: pepi the problem lies with the client/s; they would sometimes give a negative feedback that would cause delays in payments and penalties. there were occassions that i was able to reason out with the support to cut down the penalties imposed.
I disagree that the problem lies with the clients when they give negative feedback. The problem is with the company policy. So long as the client chooses to use your essay and plagiarism is not found, then you should be paid. If the client refuses to accept the essay, advise him or her that you will post your essay in your blog to make sure it is not used. This way, the company should be forced to pay writers for their work.
Negative feedback (other than late submissions and plagiarism) should be used only for minor deductions and as basis for limiting the number of orders writers can handle.
Essaywriters.net or Writers.ph tries to squeeze every dollar cent it can from its writers. All of you who have been complaining should work for other sites. I've been told freelancewritingcenter.com pays on time and is judicious with its writers. There are other honest sites, found here and elsewhere. Just get the hell out of scam companies.
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| sunburst_cookies |
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Feb 15, 08, 04:27AM
| #16 |
Joined: Feb 11, 08
Posts: 15
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Dear pepi,
What's your strategy for handling these crooks? Or did it just take patience on your part?
Perhaps I'm getting impatient because of the complaints and exposes I've read about the company.
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| pepi |
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Feb 19, 08, 06:04AM
| #17 |
Joined: Jan 5, 08
Posts: 21
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hello. sunburst_cookies. there were times that i really wanted to curse them for unbelieable plagiarism reports and negative feedbacks but i know they will punish me for that by terminating my account and not paying me for the projects i've done.
try to call them and tell them about your concerns and you could also storm them with messages until they get it through their thick heads that something is wrong. but do it with nicely. it works.
my girlfriend is also a writer for writers.ph she experienced payment delays until she got fed up and became obnoxious to the support team. all they did was promise her that she'll get paid soon. a month passed and then two months, she got nothing.
i told her that maybe she should change her strategy this time. she became courteous to the support team and lo and behold! they responded nicely. after a few weeks she got her $500 payment.
how long have you been waiting for your salary payment? if it has been a month or more call the writers.ph office or better yet pay them a visit.
my girlfriend and i were planning on checking the writers.ph site just to know if it really exists.
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| pepi |
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Feb 19, 08, 06:09AM
| #18 |
Joined: Jan 5, 08
Posts: 21
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@pious--- that was my personal expereince. negative feedbacks=salary deduction. time and again i tried to persuade the support team that the client should read my work first before they give me a negative feedback. the problem with the clients and quality assurance dept. is that they don't read the writer's work.
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| pepi |
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Feb 19, 08, 06:11AM
| #19 |
Joined: Jan 5, 08
Posts: 21
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@sunburst_cookies--- don't take any orders anymore not until they pay you. next time limit your orders at a minimum. that's what i'm doing now.
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| ripped |
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Feb 22, 08, 03:22AM
| #20 |
Joined: Feb 22, 08
Posts: 2
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EW "support group" is currently staffed by Filipinos. They are granted access on the message boards to answer inquiries relative to the specific orders and they tend to "clam up" when writers get mad and brazen.
Enter the usuals like anna, helen, daniel...and new ones like Tracy, etc. using different American names (they could think of-) as mediators. They sometimes take part in the common exchange but the above-named persons are more likely to answer "messages" in their own forum.
The real issue however is this:
If they set up office here in the Philippines, payments to Filipino-based writers don't incur as much as their $15 bank transfer charge!
Inter-branch transfer within the Philippines is only 100 Philippine Peso (less than $2.50) max, while some banks don't charge at all!
Consider this amount ripped!
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| Rush Essays |
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Mar 11, 08, 05:03AM
| #21 |
Joined: Mar 11, 08
Posts: 4
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Quoting: pious Do you mean the Filipino staff of writers.ph only handle the call center part?
I have a feeling that the writers.ph branch recruits Filipino writers... And that's it. It is easy to set office (virtual office) in Makati or elsewhere.
But bestessays.com and rushessays.com must be highlighted to all as SCAMS WHO not only underpay their writers, but THEY DO NOT PAY their writers!!!
So, beware of bestessays.com and rushessays.com
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| chella_stanite |
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Jun 4, 08, 10:48AM
| #22 |
Joined: Jun 4, 08
Posts: 3
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Essay writers.net claim to be the best freelance research service but they are the worst for writers. I have lost about $750 without payment from this company. They get all work done and when it comes to payment, they tell the work is plagiarised and the penalties will be higher than the actual payment. After doing so much of hard work, nothing is left. I am happy that they never asked money from me. essaywriters.net is the number one fraud in the industry. they should be shut down.
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| FrostatMidnight |
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Jun 5, 08, 06:43AM
| #23 |
Joined: Feb 25, 08
Threads: 1
Posts: 153
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Project1st class do the same. They don't inform you where you have plagiarised. It is simply a ploy to retain your payment.
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| ryan |
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Oct 29, 08, 06:05AM
| #24 |
Joined: Oct 29, 08
Posts: 4
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I've talked with that Susan lady once, and it was about my application for writers.ph. WHat the hell is going on?? I joined writers.ph two days ago and i thought it really was legit. Jesus H. Christ! (I'll apologize now for the usage of the term, before i suffer the wrath of all you religious friends, hehe). But I'm just flabbergasted by all of this.
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| banned writer911 |
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Oct 29, 08, 08:06AM
| #25 |
Joined: Oct 21, 08
Threads: 1
Posts: 29
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Oh, yes! Don't come near them. essaywriters.net and writers.ph.
Beware!!!
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| jean |
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Jul 17, 09, 06:08AM
| #26 |
Joined: Jul 17, 09
Posts: 2
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WritersBeware
hey, "Qoute" doesn't seem to be working, why is that?
anyways, it's a good thing i came upon this site before I applied for research writer at writers.ph. i should have known the job was too good to be true. :)
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| Researcher |
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Jul 17, 09, 07:42AM
| #27 |
Joined: May 30, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 431
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I have been a victim of EW fraud too. An order was assigned to me which an earlier writer failed to complete. When I uploaded the order, approx. $10 were deducted as fine for late submission despite the fact that i uploaded the essay well before time. When i asked them about this, they just informed me that 10th file uploaded by you was late. However the fact was I just uploaded one file and that too within time..... they are really cheaters..... Writers please keep yourselves away from this no.1 fraud of the industry..
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| EW_writer |
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Jul 17, 09, 07:45AM
| #28 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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Dude, this happened to me many times before. A simple explanation should clear things up and get your fine removed (unless you really were late with the last submission). In my experience, these fines are the easiest to nullify.
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| Researcher |
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Jul 17, 09, 07:56AM
| #29 |
Joined: May 30, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 431
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EW_writer: ude, this happened to me many times before. A simple explanation should clear things up and get your fine removed (unless you really were late with the last submission). In my experience, these fines are the easiest to nullify.
Dude the issue is not removal of fines but the very system which has been designed in such a manner that it assist in fraud. Why system automatically impose fines when nothing goes against the instructions or so called policies of EW? Why should I message them and explain them about this? It means if a writer is new or not aware of such tactics, EW can easily get away with the money...
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| rustyironchains |
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Jul 17, 09, 09:42AM
| #30 |
Joined: Jun 15, 09
Threads: 14
Posts: 855
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essaywriters.net-- write a bunch of papers, build up a balance, and then try to keep them from completely draining it.
ask yourself-- are you up to this Sisyphean, Kafkaesque nightmare? if so, good luck running the gauntlet of their capricious, ignorant staff.
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| EW_writer |
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Jul 17, 09, 05:34PM
| #31 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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Researcher: Why system automatically impose fines when nothing goes against the instructions or so called policies of EW? Why should I message them and explain them about this? It means if a writer is new or not aware of such tactics, EW can easily get away with the money...
Errr... I' was just trying to help you get your money back. >.<
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| ishpoetic |
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Nov 30, 10, 06:36PM
| #32 |
Joined: Nov 30, 10
Threads: 2
Posts: 3
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WritersBeware: Anyone who continues working for EssayWriters.net and/or Writers.ph deserves to be vigorously pummeled with a rotting baboon carcass.
Goodness! Good thing I came across this site before I took more orders from writers.ph. I actually asked them where in the Phils is their office located, and they denied having an office here! The second time I asked "Daniel", he said he couldn't disclose such info... Total crap.
Another fishy experience: I applied for asianwriters.net, which, by the way, has a similar interface with that of writers.ph's. I logged in and found my page being redirected to writers.ph. Strange, eh? Yet "Daniel" denied being affiliated with the the said site. Sad... Think of the time and effort I wasted, trying to complete my orders. Can't the government stop them, at least?
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| iamawriter |
Writer |
Jul 10, 11, 02:10PM
| #33 |
Joined: Jul 10, 11
Posts: 1
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PLEASE FINISH READING THIS.
First of all. Let's stop scaring current employees of both writing departments. I worked for writers.ph for 3 months and my contract just ended last week. Before I applied there, I came across this site, it's a good thing I took the risk. I would like to confirm that WRITERS.PH IS NOT A SCAM. I assume most of the salary disputes are that of the freelance writers. I was told that to assure the quality of FL writers' uploads, the rules are much stricter for them. The department doesn't have any assurance for the quality of your work since you don't have a contract unlike the office writer that's why the salaries are hold until they are paid fully by the client. You can view when is your RIGHTful day of compensation in every order you finish through the order details itself. WHY HOLD THE COMPENSATION? The website where the clients place their orders clarifies that the papers may be revised as many as they can w/out additional pay and that the orders may be refunded if the order was labeled and proven BQ(bad quality). It is then due to these circumstances that they can't give your salary as soon as you upload the product. Even office writers need to wait a month before we can get our earnings. DON'T WANT DELAYED SALARY? BE AN OFFICE WRITER. The application is really easy. Even high school grads could pass that. minimum wage one can earn at this time is 15,000, which is very rare. My contract says 15,000 but I receive 9,500 every half a month, tax excluded. office is very comfortable. Fun people to work with. Writers also have their Call Center, they cater to the writers asking for deadline extensions, fine removal, office internet connection and such.
Writers.ph is own by Ukrainians which I would justify to be true since they actually visit us, treat us some pizzas and gave us chocolates every time they'd visit. BIG ONES hehe..
to my fellow filipinos, wag na kayong magtaka dahil pareparehas lng din naman ang may ari yang mga writing ek-ek na yan. the thing is, kumikita ka, ang pera ay pera. un naman yung goal for applying for job d b? hindi ko alam kung pano ang palakad sa ibang website, pero pinatototohanan ko lang na hindi scam ang writers.ph. 18 yrs old lang ako pero I earned around 60 thousand in three months, excluding my 45,000 + earnings per month. walang limitations ang earnings dito. and they pay REAL money. daig mo pa ang OFW XD.
anyway.madaling pumasok, madali ang interview. pero wag kang bobo. wag mo ng subukang magapply kung eengot engot ka s english lalo na s grammar mo. yari ka s trabaho mismo. nakaka stress din ung ibang client. pero may mga client na nagbibigay ng Bonus. the highest that I got was 100 $ . =) bait nila. hehe...
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| WritersBeware |
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Jul 10, 11, 02:43PM
| #34 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,678
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iamawriter: The website where the clients place their orders clarifies that the papers may be revised as many as they can w/out additional pay and that the orders may be refunded if the order was labeled and proven BQ(bad quality). It is then due to these circumstances that they can't give your salary as soon as you upload the product.
Nonsense.
iamawriter: Even office writers need to wait a month before we can get our earnings. DON'T WANT DELAYED SALARY? BE AN OFFICE WRITER.
Wow, you sure do make a lot of sense.
iamawriter: to my fellow filipinos, wag na kayong magtaka dahil pareparehas lng din naman ang may ari yang mga writing ek-ek na yan. the thing is, kumikita ka, ang pera ay pera. un naman yung goal for applying for job d b? hindi ko alam kung pano ang palakad sa ibang website, pero pinatototohanan ko lang na hindi scam ang writers.ph. 18 yrs old lang ako pero I earned around 60 thousand in three months, excluding my 45,000 + earnings per month. walang limitations ang earnings dito. and they pay REAL money. daig mo pa ang OFW XD. anyway.madaling pumasok, madali ang interview. pero wag kang bobo. wag mo ng subukang magapply kung eengot engot ka s english lalo na s grammar mo. yari ka s trabaho mismo. nakaka stress din ung ibang client. pero may mga client na nagbibigay ng Bonus. the highest that I got was 100 $ . =) bait nila. hehe...
Mod, please delete that Tagalog gibberish. This is an English-language forum.
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| MUKHERJEE4 |
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Jul 11, 11, 11:16PM
| #35 |
Joined: Jul 6, 11
Threads: 1
Posts: 14
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Ris Writersbeware the one to advise MOD on what to do????
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