| Damocrian |
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Jun 24, 08, 04:09PM
| #1 |
Joined: Jun 24, 08
Posts: 10
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First of all I'd like to say that these type of forums are very helpful for students, it prevents them from literally getting robbed.
Second thing, people who consider that buying services from such sites is cheating are completely wrong. The usual example is: "Imagine that your teacher did the same and ends up teaching in a university! That wouldn't be fair for people that actually worked on their onwn!". That's a crappy argument!! For the simple reason that to become a recognised University teacher, he needs to be recognised by his peers or the industry that he worked in.
I am an MBA graduate working for a major financial institution and I have in the past bought services from such sites for essays and even for my dissertation... That doesn't change a thing, for the simple reason that what i have learned in class is what actually matters. Nobody asked me what my dissertation was about, or even the grades I have received... What matters is how you handle your work on the job. Wheter your good or not at what you do, that is what matters!! If you do suck at what you do, then you'll simply get fired and be replaced by somebody that don't suck! LOL I can discuss this for hours with thousands of examples, so please, don't say that we're cheaters.
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| strugglingstudent |
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Jun 24, 08, 11:38PM
| #2 |
Joined: Mar 6, 08
Threads: 3
Posts: 194
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Damocrian: I can discuss this for hours with thousands of examples, so please, don't say that we're cheaters.
IF you buy an essay from an essay writing company AND then submit that as your OWN work WITHOUT ANY alteration or acknowledgement of the source then YES you are a CHEATER. How can you submit someone else'd work as your own, and then claim that YOU achieved that grade? NO you didn't YOUR writer did.
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| WritersBeware |
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Jun 24, 08, 11:46PM
| #3 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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Damocrian: what i have learned in class is what actually matters
You may not care about proving--outside of your own skull--that you actually deserve and have earned the job, but I damn well bet that your unknowing clients would care.
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| SolidSnake |
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Jun 25, 08, 08:53AM
| #4 |
Joined: Apr 15, 08
Posts: 83
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strugglingstudent: IF you buy an essay from an essay writing company AND then submit that as your OWN work WITHOUT ANY alteration or acknowledgement of the source then YES you are a CHEATER. How can you submit someone else'd work as your own, and then claim that YOU achieved that grade? NO you didn't YOUR writer did.
oooh sounding more and more like WB everyday ss.
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| strugglingstudent |
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Jun 25, 08, 11:49AM
| #5 |
Joined: Mar 6, 08
Threads: 3
Posts: 194
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SolidSnake: oooh sounding more and more like WB everyday ss.
ouch that hurt SS lol although I have ALWAYS maintained that submitting custom written essays as your own is wrong. In fact my thesis is on exactly that topic so I guess comments like that from Damocrian reinforce my theory that MANY students submit these essays as their own work.
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| student2008 |
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Jun 27, 08, 02:51PM
| #6 |
Joined: Jun 27, 08
Posts: 4
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One of the purposes of a university education is to allow students to develop and formulate their own ideas. There is plenty of current literature which can be referred to without sites of this nature.
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| Lavinia |
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Jun 27, 08, 09:51PM
| #7 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 546
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strugglingstudent: In fact my thesis is on exactly that topic so I guess comments like that from Damocrian reinforce my theory that MANY students submit these essays as their own work.
Rubbish. Students who don't submit essays as their own would have no reason to frequent this site or post, making the population of individuals that you claim to support your thesis tainted.
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| strugglingstudent |
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Jun 28, 08, 01:17AM
| #8 |
Joined: Mar 6, 08
Threads: 3
Posts: 194
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Lavinia: Rubbish. Students who don't submit essays as their own would have no reason to frequent this site or post, making the population of individuals that you claim to support your thesis tainted.
This is not the ONLY source that I am using for my thesis. This site demonstrates quite nicely that several students are looking for essays that they can use as their own without altering the content. Lavinia from your above commet you are suggesting that ALL students that visit this site use the essays as their own as in your OWN words 'STUDENTS WHO DON'T SUBMIT ESSAYS AS THEIR OWN WOULD HAVE NO REASON TO FREQUENT THIS SITE OR POST'
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| Lavinia |
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Edited by: Lavinia Jun 28, 08, 01:29AM
| #9 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 546
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Posting in all caps is pretty obnoxious.
So, how many is MANY (as you stated in your sentence?). I provided evidence that said 2-3% of student customers turn in their purchased essays as their own months ago and you NEVER provided any counter evidence, so I'm quite curious as to the source of your information and what percentage of student consumers you contend are turning in their papers as their own.
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| EW_writer |
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Edited by: EW_writer Jun 28, 08, 02:50AM
| #10 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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But how reliable is your 2-3%? In the proof that you mentioned, it might have said that only 2-3% of students submitted essays that they bought exactly as those essays were but did it say how many students submitted essays after making only very minimal changes? Did it define the line between submitting something you bought and submitting something that can be called originally your work? Did it mention how many of these students who buy from essay writing mills actually quote the sources of their information as coming from such sites?
I think that it is utter naivety to even consider that a majority of students who buy from essay writing mills do not turn in what they buy to their professors. Sure some of them might go through the trouble of paraphrasing some or even the entire order that they bought but that still does not mean that they can claim the work as originally theirs.
However as for Damocrian's point in this thread, I believe that it is first and foremost the university's responsibility to safeguard their academic standards against the cheating that we do. If they suck at their job, then that's their problem.
One more thing:
https://www.mysecurepayment.com/research/order.php
This is supposed to be one of the "good" essay millls according to WB. ^_^ The quote below is take from their site:
It is not legal for us to sell research to anyone who indicates that he or she will submit our work for academic credit.
Can everyone say it with me? Loopholes. :)
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| WritersBeware |
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Jun 28, 08, 11:18AM
| #11 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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EW_writer: It is not legal for us to sell research to anyone who indicates that he or she will submit our work for academic credit.
That is ACTUAL LANGUAGE from state laws. It's not a "loophole." I know it's hard for you to believe that some companies are 100% legitimate.
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| Lavinia |
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Jun 28, 08, 05:29PM
| #12 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 546
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EW_writer: But how reliable is your 2-3%?
If you want to check the reliability of the data, I suggest you read the studies. I posted information on 4 different studies published in academic journals in the U.S. or the U.K. They all supported the 2-3% figure. So, in light of zero counter evidence, I'd say their reliability is pretty good.
So where is your counter evidence?
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| EW_writer |
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Jun 29, 08, 12:46AM
| #13 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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WritersBeware: That is ACTUAL LANGUAGE from state laws. It's not a "loophole." I know it's hard for you to believe that some companies are 100% legitimate.
Can everyone see the inherent lack of logic of this statement? The actual language of the law is what causes the loophole that makes the provisions that are supposed to guard against students submitting papers that they buy as their own ridiculously punitive. I'm not questioning these companies' legitimacy. My post has nothing to do with legitimacy and you are oh so sorely off-topic which your ever so predictable protectionist statements. :P
Lavinia: So where is your counter evidence?
Does common sense count as evidence? I think one student here once wrote against the logic of buying something that you're not going to submit. I don't know, I'm not about to spend time trying to verify one way or the other. ^_^ But really, don't you find your evidence at least surprising?
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| Lavinia |
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Jun 29, 08, 07:48PM
| #14 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 546
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EW_writer: Does common sense count as evidence? I think one student here once wrote against the logic of buying something that you're not going to submit. I don't know, I'm not about to spend time trying to verify one way or the other. ^_^ But really, don't you find your evidence at least surprising?
Common sense only gets one so far. When the common sense of a few clash, I'll gladly take empirical evidence as the tie breaker. I did the research before I started working in this field, so I entered it with an open mind and I didn't really find the evidence surprising.
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| EW_writer |
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Jun 30, 08, 05:10AM
| #15 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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Okay, so let's take your empirical evidence into consideration. So are you saying that you firmly believe that 97-98% of students who buy just read the work and turn in something completely different from it? By completely different, I'm refering to something that goes beyond simple paraphrasing which is still counted as plagiarism if you don't site the source.
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| Lavinia |
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Edited by: Lavinia Jul 1, 08, 12:56AM
| #16 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 546
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I'm saying that multiple published academic studies should be given a greater weight than your personal views.
I wouldn't limit this viewpoint to just this industry; frankly, my preference for evidence to ground opinion applies to pretty much all subjects. The earth is flat sure seemed like common sense at the time, and some people still believe that the earth is flat, but...
I could ask you what percentage of customers you believe cheat... but what would be the point? It would be purely a guess, based upon no controlled study and unreliable data.
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| EW_writer |
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Jul 7, 08, 01:29AM
| #17 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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Lavinia: I'm saying that multiple published academic studies should be given a greater weight than your personal views.
Not when the coomon sense views make much more sense. :) Being a stat buff, I'm well aware of how the numbers in studies conducted can be twisted to agree to biases. Still, I am making no accusations. I just really, really, REALLY think that it's absurd to think that the majority of students who buy from us submit something very different from what they get from us.
The question is, am I the only one who thinks this way? >.<
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| Lavinia |
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Jul 7, 08, 03:50PM
| #18 |
Joined: Aug 7, 07
Threads: 4
Posts: 546
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Right, and "common sense" leads folks to believe that the sun revolves around the earth. Common sense should give way to evidence disproving its claims.
It's absurd to think that multiple academic professors would twist the data to bias their reports to show that students aren't using the papers to cheat. If anyone, professors (particularly those in the UK, where according to SS ALL uses of essay companies constitutes cheating) should be foaming at the mouths doctoring the data to show that ALL students cheat.
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| EW_writer |
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Jul 7, 08, 08:23PM
| #19 |
Joined: Jul 2, 07
Threads: 27
Posts: 2,239
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Lavinia: Right, and "common sense" leads folks to believe that the sun revolves around the earth. Common sense should give way to evidence disproving its claims.
Aw c'mon, that's not fair. We really have to distinguish between scientific discoveries found through experimental reseacrh methodologies and statistical conclusions based on data analysis which are considered less reliable than the first on any day.
Lavinia: It's absurd to think that multiple academic professors would twist the data to bias their reports to show that students aren't using the papers to cheat. If anyone, professors (particularly those in the UK, where according to SS ALL uses of essay companies constitutes cheating) should be foaming at the mouths doctoring the data to show that ALL students cheat.
Do you have empirical data that supports this? :P See what I mean? Even if professors do not have any incentive to fudge results (which I am not totally saying is the case), the students who are most likely their subjects in their researches do. If these studies use survey questions (as they most likely do), then the possibility of respondent bias abounds. :D
Bottomline is, it's also quite absurd to buy something that you're not going to use. If students just used papers that they bought as sources, they'll get those for free if they search the internet. Furthermore if that was the case, then they also wouldn't mind if the paper they got was plagiarized since they're going to paraphrase it anyway. :D But the thing is, they do mind. Students want to buy non-plagiarized, outstanding papers because they want to submit it (or change it slightly and then submit it) to get good grades. It makes so much more sense than any "scientific" study that claims otherwise unless that study can actually present a million or so papers written by students who bought customized papers and compare such work against what they bought.
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| lucytokugawa |
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Aug 10, 08, 02:26AM
| #20 |
Joined: Mar 6, 08
Posts: 5
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well what else should i say , they said almost everything, and me Amen
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