| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 12, 11, 02:39PM
| #1 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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Dear all the Native Speakers:
Following is the list of a few research articles that unfold the "mystery" of native-speakerism. I hope you can get these articles.
I also hope that after reading these, you'll revisit your notion of native speakerism and try to rebuild a world that believes in coexistence and not coextinction. Regards.
Conklin, K., & Schmitt, N. (2008). Formulaic sequences: Are they processed more quickly than nonformulaic language by native and nonnative speakers? Applied Linguistics, 29(1), 72.
Holliday, A. (2006). Native-speakerism. ELT journal, 60(4), 385.
Love, N., & Ansaldo, U. (2010). The native speaker and the mother tongue. Language Sciences.
Kabel, A. (2009). Native-speakerism, stereotyping and the collusion of applied linguistics. System, 37(1), 12-22.
Ke, I. C. (2009). Haunting Native Speakerism? Students' Perceptions toward Native Speaking English Teachers. English Language Teaching, 2(3), P44.
Selvi, A. F. (2011). The non-native speaker teacher. ELT Journal, 65(2), 187.
Waters, A. (2009). Ideology in applied linguistics for language teaching. Applied Linguistics, 30(1), 138.
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| WritersBeware |
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Apr 12, 11, 02:50PM
| #2 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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MeoKhan, you're a clueless idiot. Seriously, just STFU already. The majority of your posts are incoherent and senseless. You prove that your writing skills are miserable nearly every time you post.
Oh, by the way, are those articles based on the essay industry and the "professional" writers therein? No, they're not.
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| jkrup |
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Apr 12, 11, 03:23PM
| #3 |
Joined: Apr 12, 11
Posts: 3
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what do these articles mean?
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| WritersBeware |
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Apr 12, 11, 03:52PM
| #4 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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jkrup: what do these articles mean?
You are not fooling anyone. You may not post meaningless gibberish just to receive PM privileges!
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:24AM
| #5 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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WritersBeware: you're a clueless idiot
And you're the self-proclaimed queen of ES. Who has given you the authority to pass judgment on everything in the forum. Useless arrogance.
Without reading these articles, (I am sure you can't even access them :-D) you're making senseless gibberish yourself.
I will not answer any of your foolishly arrogant questions unless you're able to go through at least one of the articles.
You're so desperate now because these articles slap back in your face stating the arrogant falsification of native-speakerism.
Poor you!
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:26AM
| #6 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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jkrup: what do these articles mean
These articles (written by native speakers of English), all in journals of high repute, center on one thing: the notion of native speakerism is false.
I will know on this forum no SUPERIOR arrogant soul has the heart to go through these because they don't want to get slapped!!!
Ah, so miserable.
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| WritersBeware |
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Apr 13, 11, 08:49AM
| #7 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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MeoKhan: These articles (written by native speakers of English), all in journals of high repute, center on one thing: the notion of native speakerism is false. I will know on this forum no SUPERIOR arrogant soul has the heart to go through these because they don't want to get slapped!!! Ah, so miserable.
Ah, so what you are asserting is that your grasp of the English language is as good as mine. Right.
Go f*ck yourself, cave-dweller.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Edited by: MeoKhan Apr 13, 11, 01:44PM
| #8 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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WritersBeware: Go f*ck yourself, cave-dweller.
You're trying to hide your embarrassment by again (as usual) using the language your parents have used with you.
I have ALREADY (everyone must witness) admitted that my grasp of English is not good. So nowhere I am claiming that.
These articles I have posted because Pheelyks has asked me to put some reads because I argued some about your false notion of native speaker arrogance.
Now, I know you won't bother to read any of these (you can't even access them) because these articles will slap in your face your under-nourished arrogance of being native-speakers of English: you the one who takes more pride in using swear words rather than talk sense and properly counter a rational argument.
How pathetic!
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| editor75 |
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Edited by: editor75 Apr 13, 11, 03:09PM
| #9 |
Joined: Dec 18, 10
Threads: 6
Posts: 999
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you're right, Meo: WB probably isn't going to read these articles. neither is anyone else, because they appear to be from password-protected, database-based, peer-reviewed journals. if you really want to confront the arrogance and ignorance of these clowns, you might try posting some quotations directly from the articles, and asking them to respond.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:17PM
| #10 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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editor75: asking them to respond
Editor75, you're right. I will do it asap. Let's see how these arrogant souls respond to their falsified notion of native-speakerism. I am sure all they will do is use the language their parent(s) have taught them from day one.
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:24PM
| #11 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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Conklin, K., & Schmitt, N. (2008). Formulaic sequences: Are they processed more quickly than nonformulaic language by native and nonnative speakers? Applied Linguistics, 29(1), 72.
This is an experimental research study that used groups of native and non-native speakers to determine whether "formulaic sentences" (what we might call idiomatic phrases like "take the bull by the horns") are processed faster than non-formulaic sentences (sentences of similar length and complexity that are understood word by word instead of as phrases). The different groups of speakers were used to show that "it is possible for learners to enjoy the same type of processing advantage as natives. " This study has nothing to do with whether or not native and non-native speakers of English have the same level of skill; it only demonstrates that certain language processing mechanisms don't appear to be language-specific.
Holliday, A. (2006). Native-speakerism. ELT journal, 60(4), 385.
This article is about English Language Teaching (ELT) and deals with the belief that native speakers make better teachers of English due to their supposed representation of Western culture. It has nothing to do with how native/non-native speakers actually use language or who is "better" when it comes to English proficiency.
Love, N., & Ansaldo, U. (2010). The native speaker and the mother tongue. Language Sciences.
"This [four page] article presents a historical account of the role and function in linguistic theorising of the concepts "native speaker" and "mother tongue", and serves to introduce a number of articles (Language Sciences vol. 32 no. 6) raising questions about various aspects of the idealised monolingualism that underlies much modern linguistics."
The first three articles don't really appear to have anything to do with the point you've been trying to make. Unless you provide some evidence otherwise, I'm going to stop wasting my time and assume that your other sources are equally irrelevant. Did you bother to read any of these articles' abstracts before you posted them?
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:26PM
| #12 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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MeoKhan: Now, I know you won't bother to read any of these (you can't even access them)
You're a sad, sad little man. The abstracts for all of these articles are available through Google scholar--freely available to anyone with an open Internet connection. I also have access to most of the major academic databases through my university affiliations, had google scholar failed me (which it clearly didn't).
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:39PM
| #13 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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First quotation from Holliday (2006):
The impact of native-speakerism can be seen in many aspects of professional life, from employment policy to the presentation of language. An underlying theme is the 'othering' of students and colleagues from outside the English-speaking West (p. 385).
2nd from the same source:
Such a perspective is native-speakerist because it negatively and confiningly labels what are in effect 'non-native speaker' 'cultures' as 'dependent', 'hierarchical', 'collectivist', 'reticent', 'indirect', 'passive', 'docile', 'lacking in self esteem' 'reluctant to challenge authority', 'easily dominated', 'undemocratic', or 'traditional' and, in effect, uncritical and unthinking (Holliday 2005: 19, Pennycook 2002, Kubota 2001). Although such descriptions are claimed to be the result of professional observation, their ideological, prejudicial nature becomes apparent when they recur almost indiscriminately in much ELT professional talk, literature, and training, regardless of the specific 'culture' being described (Kubota 2001, Holliday 2005: 19). Such descriptions thus represent an imagined, problematic generalized Other to the unproblematic Self of the 'native speaker'. (pp. 385-386).
3rd from the same source:
The undoing of native-speakerism requires a type of thinking that promotes new relationships. This is already evident in discussions concerning the ownership of English and the reassessment of who we are after 9/11.1 It is argued in the conclusion to Holliday (2005) that native-speakerism needs to be addressed at the level of the prejudices embedded in everyday practice, and that dominant professional discourses must be put aside if the meanings and realities of students and colleagues from outside the English-speaking West are to be understood (p. 386).
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:41PM
| #14 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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pheelyks: access to most of the major academic databases
You will never want to let your arrogance go! However, if you have access to these, I hope your posts will show a different tone from now on. Let's see.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 03:43PM
| #15 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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MeoKhan: the prejudices embedded in everyday practice
I am waiting for the critical feedback from my "superior" native-speaker colleagues here. Any takers?
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Edited by: MeoKhan Apr 13, 11, 03:47PM
| #16 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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pheelyks: anything to do with the point you've been trying to make
I am so sorry Pheelyks; you failed your own arrogance so mercilessly. First you hailed the fact that you had access to all of them (that you did NOT) and then you pasted extracts from a few abstracts (not the articles - poor guy).
Now, read my excerpts from Holliday (2006), and like a good guy let me have your feedback. I hope you and others (claiming their native-speakerism) would sure do. Let's see.
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 04:39PM
| #17 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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Your quotes all support the idea that "native-speakerism" is detrimental in English Language Teaching settings, insofar as "native-speakerism" is defined as a negative view of non-native-speaking cultures as "dependent', 'hierarchical', 'collectivist', 'reticent', 'indirect', 'passive', 'docile', 'lacking in self esteem' 'reluctant to challenge authority', 'easily dominated', 'undemocratic', or 'traditional' and, in effect, uncritical and unthinking." This isn't something anyone here is arguing.
Our point is that non-native speakers that have not reached native fluency should be honest about this fact with their customers, because their writing is very recognizable as non-native. This has nothing to do with culture, race, or anything else--it has to do with English skill. Your articles do not address this fact, which is the only relevant one to the discussion.
For you, there is not simply a language barrier, but a problem when it comes to intelligence. You don't even understand the argument you are in or the evidence you chose to back yourself up.
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| editor75 |
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Edited by: editor75 Apr 13, 11, 04:50PM
| #18 |
Joined: Dec 18, 10
Threads: 6
Posts: 999
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MeoKhan: It is argued in the conclusion to Holliday (2005) that native-speakerism needs to be addressed at the level of the prejudices embedded in everyday practice, and that dominant professional discourses must be put aside if the meanings and realities of students and colleagues from outside the English-speaking West are to be understood (p. 386).
I think this is the quote that needs addressed; the others are slightly off-topic.
WB, are the words too big for you? is the sentence up there too long?
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 13, 11, 06:26PM
| #19 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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editor75: I think this is the quote that needs addressed
I addressed this quote by defining "native-speakerism" as it is defined in the article from whence this quote comes. The author (Holliday) is arguing that a prejudice towards Western culture and thus native speakers of English in the field of English language education needs to be done away with in order to create truly effective ELT programs. That is, he asserts that a prejudice towards native speakers is detrimental to teaching non-native speakers English. This has nothing to do with non-native writers attempting to work in an industry where native-level fluency is expected and demanded. None of the articles MeoKhan posted address this point.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 04:43AM
| #20 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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MeoKhan: dominant professional discourses must be put aside if the meanings and realities of students and colleagues from outside the English-speaking West are to be understood
If you read again, my argument is very much alive.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 04:44AM
| #21 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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I am going to post some more material soon.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Edited by: MeoKhan Apr 14, 11, 05:03AM
| #22 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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Further evidence of the falsified notion of native speakerism:
Standard English
The term Standard English suggests that we all share a similar understanding of exactly what this means, yet it is not easy to define. One reason for this is that there is no world-recognized governing body that dictates what should and should not be included in such a standard. However, McArthur (2003, 442) maintains that Standard English has at "least three identifying characteristics: 1) It is easiest to recognize in print because written conventions are similar worldwide. 2) It is usually used by news presenters. 3) Its usage relates to the speaker's social class and education." McArthur (2003, 442) also suggests that Standard English is generally considered "the variety most widely accepted, understood, and perhaps valued within an English speaking country." We can see that the community decides what is acceptable and what is not, what is correct usage and what is not. Yet, for example, a Canadian's definition of what is standard may vary dramatically from that of an Irish person. This lack of a clear, agreed-upon definition of the term standard presents a problem for learners and teachers of English, especially when learners say they want to learn Standard English and when their teachers are supposed to instruct them in this standard.
Teaching Standard English can in fact have negative consequences for the language learners
(Tollefson 2002) for the following reasons:
• Standard English is a native-speaker model which may be unattainable for many second language learners. Therefore, it may be unrealistic to use a native-speaker model for language learners who, by definition, can "never become native-speakers without being
reborn" (Cook 1999, 187).
• Insisting on Standard English can devalue other varieties of English that exist around the world. For example, so-called non-standard varieties, such as Singlish in Singapore (McArthur 2004; Qiong 2004), are often considered illegitimate because they are believed to be failed attempts at being Standard English. Anything that is different from a standard is considered inferior. By idealizing Standard English, and consequently devaluing non-standard
varieties, some governments and language teachers may in effect be actually devaluing their own local varieties of English. An example in Singlish is the absence of past tense marking, such as "What happen yesterday?" (see Farrell and Tan 2006 for a detailed discussion of teaching Singlish). Singlish does differ from so-called Standard English in some grammatical features and lexical items, but can we then say it is inferior because of these differences?
• Teaching Standard English may promote discrimination. Some employers, for example, may discriminate against speakers of American English or Irish English by saying, "Oh! You don't speak British English, which we prefer for this position." Given that accent is often "an implicit code for race or ethnicity" (Tollefson 2002, 150), discrimination based on accent can even be considered a form of racism.
Source: Farrell, T. S. C., & Martin, S. (2009). To Teach Standard English or World Englishes? A Balanced Approach to Instruction. ET FORUM (Vol. 47, pp. 2-7).
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 05:07AM
| #23 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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I am waiting for your native-speakerist views.... OMG!
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 05:10AM
| #24 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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Thanks. At least someone understands the validity of my argument without being prejudiced.
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 09:19AM
| #25 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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MeoKhan: MeoKhan: dominant professional discourses must be put aside if the meanings and realities of students and colleagues from outside the English-speaking West are to be understood If you read again, my argument is very much alive.
Whether or not native and non-native speakers should be honest with customers about their language proficiency has nothing to do with trying to understand the "meanings and realities of students and colleagues from outside the English-speaking West." Your argument might be alive, but it has absolutely no relevance here.
MeoKhan: "the variety most widely accepted, understood, and perhaps valued within an English speaking country." We can see that the community decides what is acceptable and what is not, what is correct usage and what is not. Yet, for example, a Canadian's definition of what is standard may vary dramatically from that of an Irish person.
Ummm....yeah. This is the problem. "Standard English" in American universities is set by the American community, whereas "Standard English" in former parts of the British Empire--like your native Pakistan--are set by those communities. This means that writers from countries other than the US have a different idea of what "Standard English" is, and while this version is acceptable and even perhaps preferred in those other countries, it is NOT preferred in American universities. Thus, you need to be honest with customers about your country of origin, because it has an effect on your English proficiency. You're arguing our side now. Dumbass.
MeoKhan: a native-speaker model which may be unattainable for many second language learners.
Exactly. Many second language learners will never attain full native fluency. Again, you're making our point.
MeoKhan: Singlish does differ from so-called Standard English in some grammatical features and lexical items, but can we then say it is inferior because of these differences?
At American universities, yes, it is inferior. It does not mean that this code is less valuable for transmitting information than any other code, but it explicitly and directly means that a different set of rules are being followed than those expected and graded in an objective manner by professors/TAs. Your "evidence" really doesn;t mean what you think it means.
MeoKhan: discrimination based on accent can even be considered a form of racism.
When the employment doesn't depend upon written English skills, sure. When the service being provided is wholly a matter of language use and skill, however, this is a more than reasonable hiring criteria. It isn't about race, it's about language use; I don't think anyone would mind hiring Salman Rushdie to write papers in English.
MeoKhan: I am waiting for your native-speakerist views
That's called an ad hominem attack. By dismissing me as automatically "native-speakerist," you're insulating yourself and pretending you don't even have to consider my points. This is why you fail, yet again.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 02:06PM
| #26 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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pheelyks: it is NOT preferred in American universities
I am happy to see your tone change. Now note this point you have made. I am very soon going to quote some interesting material of how US Unis deal with Standard English.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 02:08PM
| #27 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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pheelyks: Many second language learners will never attain full native fluency. Again, you're making our point.
You're very stubbornly decontextualizing the entire reality which must have kept you wondering now. Ah me. But the readers on this forum must get it as a whole.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 02:10PM
| #28 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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pheelyks: this code is less valuable for transmitting information than any other code, but it explicitly and directly means that a different set of rules are being followed than those expected and graded in an objective manner by professors/TAs.
This is your first, explicit acceptance of ESL garbage being meaningful. Thank you Pheelyks: You do have a critical mind, that has started thinking in a different way.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 02:12PM
| #29 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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It's clear that there is nothing like Standard English....! My quotations show the this concept is flawed.
Now there are 2 points left.
1- What it has to do with the writing industry (or our essay writing industry).
2- How do US Unis deal with the matter of meaning.
Get ready. I have surprising material to quote.
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 14, 11, 02:31PM
| #30 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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MeoKhan: You're very stubbornly decontextualizing the entire reality which must have kept you wondering now.
Big words are great when they actually make sense, but considering you have trouble expressing yourself clearly even in simple terms, I would veer away from them.
MeoKhan: that has started thinking in a different way.
I haven't said anything that differs from my previous assertions and beliefs. The fact that you misinterpreted what I and others have said about non-native speakers and companies in this industry is an exaple of either your general lack o intelligence your lack of English proficiency--take your pick.
MeoKhan: It's clear that there is nothing like Standard English
no one ever said anything like this.
MeoKhan: My quotations show the this concept is flawed.
you don't even understand what your quotes show.
MeoKhan: Get ready. I have surprising material to quote.
Yeah. I can hardly wait.
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| WritersBeware |
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Apr 14, 11, 09:15PM
| #31 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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pheelyks: I don't think anyone would mind hiring Salman Rushdie to write papers in English.
BINGO. Debate over. (There never really was a debate at all.)
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| FreelanceWriter |
Writer |
Edited by: FreelanceWriter Apr 14, 11, 11:44PM
| #32 |
Joined: Oct 8, 08
Threads: 3
Posts: 656
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It's much simpler than the ESL defenders make it out. If no American reading your writing would ever even suspect that it might not have been written by a native speaker, there's no issue and nobody really cares where you're from or where and when you learned English. The fact of the matter is that most of the people defending ESLs who don't think they need to disclose that they're non-natives before they take money for writing for U.S. customers can't even write an Internet forum post, let alone a thesis, without sounding obviously like an ESL to any native English speaker.
Some of you are just totally delusional about this: I couldn't even imagine writing or speaking in Chinese and then arguing with a native Chinese speaker who told me that my Chinese was "good for an American" but that it was still obviously CSL to any native Chinese speaker.
Customers only care because there's usually a huge difference and that's why you ESLs need to just be honest about it instead of telling people that you're an American located in the U.S. They may even still choose to use you if you give them a good price, but they have a right to know in advance.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 15, 11, 11:20AM
| #33 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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Arrogance, sheer arrogance. I am busy; will get back to you guys soon.
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 15, 11, 11:22AM
| #34 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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WritersBeware: BINGO. Debate over.
I am so sorry to have you read all this (if you unfortunately have). You didn't expect such a blow! Ah, me... "Native" English speaking Americans...........
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| MeoKhan |
Writer |
Apr 15, 11, 11:28AM
| #35 |
Joined: Jan 9, 11
Threads: 4
Posts: 1,117
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FreelanceWriter: there's no issue and nobody really cares where you're
Hey dude! Welcome to the debate. You know nothing about what is actually going on and have just jumped in. You should have bothered to read a bit before making throwing your arrogant verdicts.
However, I will address your views a bit later. Adios!
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 15, 11, 11:38AM
| #36 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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MeoKhan: Arrogance, sheer arrogance.
Arguments. Reasoned arguments. Did you read anything that was posted?
MeoKhan: You didn't expect such a blow!
I got pretty much what I expected, and you haven't responded to a single thing of substance that's been said. You're ridiculous.
MeoKhan: You know nothing about what is actually going on and have just jumped in
You do realize that the entire forum remains publicly readable, right? It's not like there's much to catch up on in this argument, especially if you've been on the forum for awhile. And his points are directly on topic.
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| FreelanceWriter |
Writer |
Apr 15, 11, 01:04PM
| #37 |
Joined: Oct 8, 08
Threads: 3
Posts: 656
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MeoKhan: Hey dude! Welcome to the debate. You know nothing about what is actually going on and have just jumped in. You should have bothered to read a bit before making throwing your arrogant verdicts.
Says the idiot who just joined this forum where this same argument's been going on for at least 2 years.
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| WritersBeware |
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Edited by: WritersBeware Apr 15, 11, 03:54PM
| #38 |
Joined: Apr 19, 07
Threads: 152
Posts: 8,669
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MeoKhan: You didn't expect such a blow!
You're right—I didn't expect you to blow me.
Idiot.
(Oh, and before Editor75 jumps at the opportunity to claim that I am a man simply because I made this joke, "blow me" has become a fairly popular—albeit humorous—saying amongst women.)
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| editor75 |
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Apr 15, 11, 04:19PM
| #39 |
Joined: Dec 18, 10
Threads: 6
Posts: 999
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I wasn't going to say anything, but now that you mention it, "edited by WritersBeware,"
WritersBeware: "blow me" has become a fairly popular—albeit humorous—saying amongst women.
this pathetic attempt at a cover-up is just begging for a comment. so, in the interest of making you a better internet transvestite, I invite you to prove your assertion, as you so often invite others to prove theirs. personally, I've hung out with a fair number of women, mostly friends of girlfriends, and I've heard it a total of once. and she was wasted, and pretending to have a penis.
your move, sir.
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| pheelyks |
Writer |
Apr 15, 11, 04:22PM
| #40 |
Joined: Jan 20, 09
Threads: 8
Posts: 3,796
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editor75: and she was wasted, and pretending to have a penis. and by she I mean me |
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